Thanks Ross for this useful information.

In fact I had thought that if, despite the grease, water had entered I would have used a tape to close the cracks (only for navigation as you rightly say).
I just didn't know what type of tape would be suitable for the purpose. I just assumed it was supposed to be transparent.
I'm glad to know that this method works, I'll keep it in mind as an ace up my sleeve.

"I would break scales to keep the boat safe"

Sorry, I didn't understand this part very well.

Alessandro, I suspected that your tolerances were too small to add the addition of gasket material between the two surfaces. Verified by your diagrams.

What many of us do with model racing yachts is seal the gap along the TOP with VINYL ELECTRICAL TAPE. Our tape is 18mm wide in rolls of 18m . It is flexible enough to follow gentle curves. if it is a hard corner, cut it and restart. It is good enough for 1 or 2 sailings. Use it only for sailing. Throw out used piece and re-start next sailing. I have lost receivers and servos before I was told about this little trick.

PANIC😮

YOUR BOAT IS NOT RESPONDING IT IS SAILING S L O W L Y. IT IS RIDING LOW. I would break scale to keep the boat safe

Hi Dogle, thank you very much.
"Just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading and seeing your progress. Always very informative"
This makes me very happy.

Hi JockScott and RossM.

First of all, thank you for your advice and opinions.

Let me clarify one thing: I was no longer able to use the sheath (gasket) to make the deck closures waterproof. I added some grease, but it's a makeshift solution and certainly not the best solution.
I absolutely recommend using sheaths (rubber, silicone or other suitable material gaskets).
Better seals than fat.

Sorry Ross I don't know about paper gaskets.

Plastic is not good because it is too hard.

Now I'll show you the system I used and tell you why I couldn't use gaskets (sheath).
You won't believe it but even a 0.3 mm gasket would have raised the deck lid so much as to be very visible and unsightly.

Drawings are needed otherwise I won't be able to make myself understood:

In the first attached image you can see how I made the lids.

As you can see in the second image, the lid joint is made up of a sort of step.

Near this step (see the third attached image) there are three contact surfaces highlighted by different colored arrows.
There is very little space between these surfaces, in fact the lids fit together and require a certain amount of force to remove them.
By tightening the cover screws, the surfaces highlighted by the red arrow tighten together (bring closer together).


I cannot put a gasket (sheath) between the surfaces indicated by the black arrow because they would be visible on the deck and very ugly to look at.

If I now place a sheath in the space between the surfaces, indicated with the red arrow, the watertightness will be guaranteed one hundred percent.
Much better than fat, absolutely.

The water that flows on the deck could slip into the space between the surfaces, indicated by the black arrow, but it absolutely cannot pass between the contact surfaces indicated by the red arrow if the sheath is there (also compressed by the tightening of the screws).

However, now I cannot put a sheath (gasket) even of very little thickness, (for example, 0.5 mm or even less) in the space between the surfaces, indicated with the red arrow, because this sheath would raise the cover with respect to the surface of the deck fixed (as can be understood by looking at the fourth attached image).

If I had wanted to wear the sheath I should have thought about it first.
In the fifth attached figure you can see a possible solution.
The yellow rectangle indicates the seal.
The space removed from the wood to place the gasket should be compensated with wood underneath (red rectangle). This is to avoid making the structure too thin and fragile.

I hope I was clear enough but if you didn't understand it's definitely my fault so ask calmly.

I was unable to use the skylights and grates on the deck as covers and openings because they are too small.

Good morning Alessandro,
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading and seeing your progress. Always very informative 👍

Hi Alessandro
Here in Canada we have so called Dollar stores (e.g. Dollarama), selling low cost (cheap) items.
In the craft section they have foam sheets 2-3mm thick in a variety of colousr. I have used them for various purposes including sealing the bottom of the blender which worked satisfactorily. They are a few $s and versatile for projects.

Alessandro, did you check out paper gaskets? Or 2, 4, or 6 mil plastic sheet. (I would like someone else to try it first before I do🤔)!! And yes the thickness of the gasket can be a major problem. Grease can waterproof, but I do not hold much faith is sealing in thin layers of grease. It works in a propeller shaft for the volume of grease in the tube length

Hi Colin.

"Well done shipmate, I think you are a great inspiration for us to follow." Coming from you, it has triple value.
I memorize this sentence and keep it.

I remind myself, you and others (even if there is no need) of your great merit, as well as being an exceptional naval modeller with long experience.
You are one of the few to have successfully passed this wonderful hobby on to your grandchildren.
For me this has a particular meaning, which goes far beyond gaming and entertainment.

Hi RossM.

Good evening everyone and thanks also to Doug, AndyN, Jumpugly, Colin, Bill, Doogle, JockScott, Mike and Stevedownunder.

I will reply to Colin with a separate message.

"Will you use a gasket seal between the deck and the hull?"
You've hit on a very important topic, in my opinion: deck waterproofing.
The use of gaskets is successful (resolving).
I didn't use them because I no longer had enough margins.
In other words, the lids fit together perfectly.
I haven't found thin enough gaskets on the market that would fit.
I, most likely, made a mistake due to my lack of experience in this field.
Think of it more as a lack of mine rather than a real conscious choice.

Usually, to make up for the lack of experience, I try to imagine (hypothesize) all the problems even if I have never experienced them.
This time I wasn't far-sighted enough. Between the parts in contact I put some grease which, when compressed, occupies all the spaces and prevents (or rather should prevent) water from entering.
I repeat, I think using gaskets is better, even if I haven't done it.

In my defense (I'm acting as my own lawyer for a moment, hahahaha) I can say hiding the lids with a deck of this type (without large superstructures) is difficult.

Alessandro I am learning new tricks watching your build, it's just wonderful the way modellers get round these problems.
Well done shipmate, I think you are a great inspiration for us to follow.
Cheers Colin.,

Another brilliant idea.I was going to have small access hatches for switches and battery checking, but needed complete deck removal for repairs and refits. An effective solution to screwing down the deck. Will you use a gasket seal between the deck and the hull?

Good evening to all the modelers on this forum.

I would like to show how I covered the screws that secure the deck covers.

The screws are covered by pieces of strips as you can see in the first two images.

Leaving just this little cover wasn't good for two reasons.
Since it was not secured it could fly away, moved by wind or water, although the surface tension and viscosity of the underlying fat could perhaps keep the small piece of wood in place.
The second reason was aesthetic. It is clear that in those points the bridge has strange interruptions.
So I decided to find a method to block these little lids and hide them.
I thought of various objects that could fit on a bridge. Objects suitable for this purpose.
I thought of: coiled cordage, buckets, winch bars, cannonballs and cannons.
I discarded the barrels because I didn't even see a photo in which barrels were left on the decks of warships.
It's actually not very logical to leave a barrel on the deck of a warship.
However these objects had to be secured well (so as not to fly away first) but they had to be able to be removed to access the screws when necessary.
Consider that the larger central cover must be put on and removed normally to insert the batteries.
The other covers must only be opened to repair any faults. They should therefore never be opened under normal conditions.

The trick I used is very simple:
The cannonball boxes, the cannons (which I haven't made yet) and the cordage have two nails that are inserted into special holes.
They are all numbered so as not to confuse them.
Once placed, these objects are secure and block the wooden cover underneath, which in turn covers the screw.

Surely there were a hundred other better ways to solve the problem but for me, among those that came to mind, only this one worked.

Finally you can see the boards that collect the belaying pins on the edges of the deck.

I was careful to use 3mm diameter balls, which work well with the cannons I will be using.


The following posts will show: the weight achieved, the tests in the tank (trim, stability, rudder action and sail action in the wind "close hauled" e "close reaching") and the lake tests. Then the current works.

Hi RossM, you are not blocked.

If you've done those things with pencil and paper you're great.
Software are aids.

If you are able to do them without the use of software, you will earn my admiration even more.

If you want to learn to use 3D software (there are some free I think) you can always do it but no one can take away your skills without software.

Thank you AlessandroSPQR, but I am afraid I am stuck in the paper and pencil world, at this stage. I know WHAT you did. I have no idea HOW you did it!

Hi RossM, after you told me this I respect you even more.

That is fantastic👍. I have done that process with a slide rule. . . A long, LONG time ago

Good morning to all naval modelers.

I was about to update the work because there is very little left of the current efforts.
However, I preferred to insert this post because, after a long time, I managed to close the immersed volume of my current naval model.

For this result I have to thank AndyN who provided me with very useful information some time ago and JockScott who made me practice 3D drawing with Rhinoceros.

I applied the knowledge I acquired with the submerged hull of JockScott's scale model of the 1963 Deutchland Esso.
I'll post the link to this topic at the end of the message.

I knew that the mathematical/geometric method was valid but I didn't expect results so close to reality. In the "Deutchland Esso 1963" it was found to be 99.9%.

Even on my model the calculation results are very similar.

With the mathematical/geometric method (with a simplified polynomial since I created immersed study sections equidistant from each other) I obtained approximately 5.21 dm3.
Since I don't think I will ever sail to the sea (I prefer not to even if there are suitable places) we can say that the model would weigh around 5.21 kg.

Well the volume calculated by Rhinoceros (except for that small piece at the stern, highlighted in yellow, which I have not yet managed to close) is 5258345.49 mm3 i.e. approximately 5.26 dm3.
Also in this case the values are very similar, almost the same.
It should be kept in mind that I only used ten sections and without the half distances. If I had used half distances and more sections in the formula I could have achieved a much more accurate, practically identical result.


https://model-boats.com/forum/131081

Right RossM, I totally agree with you too.

Totally agree with you Jumpugly.

Hi Doogle, or let's go back and see if we closed every time, ahahahahah.

Hello Colin

[If we keep learning we can hopefully stay young. As long as we can remember what we learnt.
"Now what was I saying."]

ahahahahahahah

Yea, create a problem and then try and find a solution to it.It keeps the brain ticking over

Honestly, building models the way we do is my favorite way to stay sharp. My wife plays Wordle and Quordle every day. I run to the shop to read plans. 😁

It's like when you go upstairs for something and when we get there, forget what it was we went for 😂🙄

If we keep learning we can hopefully stay young. As long as we can remember what we learnt.
"Now what was I saying."
Thanks for the memory recall lesson.
Cheers Colin.

". . . and I wonder why other people call me a blowhard😉"

Ahahahah

13 year old's science fair project: THEORY OF FLIGHT
17 year old's physics project 7 FOOT LONG WIND TUNNEL

. . . and I wonder why other people call me a blowhard😉

True, experiments make children understand physics very well and, above all, in a pleasant way.

I remember the first time I found the Venturi effect, I though it was fantastic😊(Little children are easily fascinated)

Hi Ross.

In this regard it comes to my mind that the Venturi tube (Giovan Battista Venturi, 1746) is closely linked to Bernoulli's discoveries.

I was thinking about Bernoulli when we were discussing sail design. I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Thank you😁

Thanks CommodoreH for what you wrote (thanks also to Colin and Andy who gave their appreciation).

If I really thought about such a combination I would be a megalomaniac.

However, we must thank great men like this (Leonardo, Newton, Galilei, Pascal, Volta, Maxwell, Bernoulli, Torricelli, Lenz etc. etc. I can't name them all, there are hundreds) if today we too have fun with scale models of ships and planes.

Solving problems that we create for ourselves (it can't always be the wives who have this privilege, hahahaha) and then solving them helps us keep our minds young and active.

Hi Ross.

It may not be necessary to look for the curvature of the sail at all costs.
In another topic we were talking about the sprit sails; in that case I don't see how curvature, for example, can be useful.

However, in order not to give you wrong advice, it would be better to see images of your work.
If you want, open a new topic about your model under construction, I will be very interested in following its developments, especially the experiments you do.

All I can say is WOW!

You are the Leonardo Da Vinci of model boats.👍

Thank you for your detailed response. I am trying to learn how to build sails with that curve. Most of what I have learned is from reading books for sail making. I am trying to work out how much curve in a panel makes the curve in the sail shape. The first 2 tries I simply threw in the garbage. The type of boat I am working on had very large curves on the sails. I am trying to copy this.
I am very interested in the success of your deadeyes. I also will have deadeyes for the shrouds

Hi Ross.

Now I think I understand.

Therefore, actually the sails of real ships were not a single piece of fabric but many strips of fabric (which in Italian are called "ferzi" while in English the correct word should be: "sail cloth", "cloth", or "panel "), sewn together.

For my sails I used whole pieces of poplin cotton, cut to the shape of the test card (in previous messages you can see photos of the cards).
The panels are simulated by stitching (which is therefore only for aesthetics and to make the sail look more similar to the real one) parallel to each other and equidistant.
Furthermore, I sewed the bolt rope (which we call "gratile") on the edges.

My sails are therefore flat, that is, if placed on a surface they do not take on curvature.

Now, however, let's clearly distinguish what I have done, what I know how to do and what I have heard (it is important so as not to mislead you):

Before this I had made an RC sailing model with sails but it only sailed under motor because the sails were just for show.
This model I'm building now is my first sailing experience.

I know that many modelers recommend making sails by joining (sewing) different panels. The panels must be cut so that the sail has a curvature (which can move to one side or the other depending on the wind).

I have been able to see, by observing many videos and images, that this technique is mostly followed by those looking for high performance from their sailing boats.
They are totally different boats from the type I am building.
They are modern boats, with modern fabrics and large sails compared to their weight. They are scale models (mostly sloops) that also participate in regattas.
Even modern true racing boats look for profiles that are similar to airfoils to aid in lift (same principle as an airplane wing).

For scale models like mine, let's say historical RC sailing reproductions, performance and speed are not a priority.
I have seen many of these models sailing with very floppy sails and not at all curved, even close-hauled and close reach.
I believe that with a good wind the curved shape is assumed by the sail even if it is not sewn into panels.
It is clear that a well-adjusted sail with an already existing curvature is much better than a floppy sail.

I repeat, I have never made striped sails but if I were to make them, with the intention of giving them a curvature, I would make sure to taper the ends of the panels, so as to have a certain curvature when they are sewn together. The re-trimming must be very light, just minimal.

In the end. I wrote earlier that my sails are flat.
In reality, the stitching that simulates the panels and the stitching on the edges of the sails have produced, however, a slight curvature, especially in the gaff topsails.

I hope I understood and didn't go completely off track.

Thanks so much Doogle.

Paneled sail: a sail sewn of many small pieces to create a curved surface of the sail. I could be using an incorrect term. Jump right in, anybody, and correct my term please

Most impressed,your craftsmanship and details are in my view outstanding 👍

Hi RossM.

I am very happy that you followed my work and I thank you for your comment.

I am particularly satisfied and happy also because I have positive feedback on the outcome of my translation.
I always have the doubt that I write in a completely incomprehensible way, but you understood everything very well.

Sorry, I didn't understand this question well:
"Sails. Are you going with paneled sails? I thought I saw them in your drawings. I am about to embark on mine and wonder if you have any insights?"
Since I would like to answer you in the most correct way possible, could you explain to me what you mean and, in particular: "paneled" sails?
If you want, attach a photo.

P.S.
Since you have seen my work recently, I think you will have missed the initial messages, so I want to clarify one thing, for the avoidance of doubt: The story of the construction of this model relates to construction phases that have already occurred and now I am getting to the current constructions . The scale model is still being completed.
I know I posted this in the wrong section.

Thanks JockScott.

The period I chose has some advantages and some disadvantages as far as historical research is concerned.

Italian model manufacturers (or foreign ones that usually sell in Italy) treat the period of galleons and vessels very carefully.
In fact, kits and construction plans for the period from 1600 to the early 1800s are easily found, with lots of models and information.
The transition period between propeller/steam propulsion and sail propulsion is much shorter. Just a few paddle steamers.
There is a shortage of some details, such as the naval guns from around 1860.

English-language literature and Anglo-Saxon ship model houses probably have more material on that period.
In fact, I am facing the problem of cannon construction and soon, I will ask for many opinions and information in this forum.

There are also many advantages though. For example, in an RC model propeller and sail propulsion can be consistently justified.
Another advantage is that, as it is a transition period, some choices are free. For example, instead of the turnbuckles (a steel system for pulling the cables and shrouds) which were starting to catch on, I was able to use the deadeyes (which I like better) without making an error of historical coherence.

I am watching your build with fascination. Firstly, I read with great interest your problem with the shroud positioning. I understand your change and conclusion.
Deadeyes. I understand it is a point of pride to have the deadeyes in a proper row. You mention that, and I have read that It was an important point for the sailors of these ships. I also understand that if a shroud stretched too much they would be shortened to match the other shrouds. A ship would have been considered sloppy if the deadeyes were out of alignment.
Sails. Are you going with paneled sails? I thought I saw them in your drawings. I am about to embark on mine and wonder if you have any insights? Thank you for any guidance, Ross

The amount of research you invest in a historically correct model is admirable and inspirationable as I am myself involved in striving to get images of fittings for my Tanker project which closely fit the original.

Thanks so much Jumpugly!

It's a Work of Art!!!

Greetings to all naval modelers

I inserted some images of the notes I had made for the sails and rigging.
Not having a kit or reference drawings, I studied the system most consistent with the type of sail and the historical period.
The theoretical and practical knowledge of recreational sailing (not much to be honest) has not been of great use because modern boats have very simple mast and sail systems.
They are mostly sloops, so they have only one mast and only two sails, the mainsail (such as Bermuda or Marconi) and a "genoa" (which is a type of jib).
The schooner that I have to complete has three masts (mainmast, foremast and bowsprit) and six sails (two mainsails, two gaff topsails and two jibs). The two jibs have different names in Italian (sail staysail and jib perhaps "fore stay sail" and jib).

Let's be clear, the gaff rig (jibs, mainsails and gaff topsails), unlike sails with square sails, is easier to manage, has less rigging and even in reality fewer crewmen are needed.
It is also easier to handle even for an RC model (which is why I chose it at the time).
However, it is always very difficult (a big headache) if you have to start from a blank sheet of paper and start imagining all the details on your own.

To lower the mainsails on the vertical side I used rings (which in Italian are called "canestrelli").
On the spanker the mainsail is instead tied with a particular tying system which remains fixed even when the sail is furled, or when the spanker is lowered.
On the boom side the sail is not lowered, but only has two tie-down points.

To build the baskets I first carried out some research. I have collected photos and information to understand: shape, dimensions and materials of these circles (rings) that allow the mainsail to go up or down along the main spindle of the mast.
They are essentially wooden rings, often covered in protective leather.
Initially I thought of making them in brass or copper, but then I abandoned this idea because the overall weight was excessive and positioned too high.
It would have raised my center of gravity too much, reduced the righting torque, compromising the lateral stability of the ship.
I thought of various solutions but there were no examples to follow for a lightweight material, it seems like everyone uses metal rings.
I experimented with an unusual and very long method.
To make a long story short and not bore you too much, I can tell you that the rings are strings modeled and hardened with glue and then colored.
Once done, I sewed them onto the sail.
Keep in mind that the rings were open to be wound on the mast, so I had to join them all together, after having positioned them correctly. This was the most delicate and complicated operation of all.
I am quite satisfied with the work because they are very resistant and light and, for the scale I chose (1/60), they are sufficiently truthful.

Another problem to solve was to establish the number and extent of all the rigging starting from scratch and making it arrive on each belaying pin. Before that I had to study the exact number of belaying pins. When the belaying pins were not enough I used mast foot cleats.

Each lever system (whip, tackle, gantlime, etc. etc.) using specific blocks, has been designed to be functional and consistent with the historical period. I therefore identified with the sailors who had to raise the mainsail, for example, or tie a sail, but always comparing images of ships from that period.

You can see the jib halyard, the throat halyard, peak halyard with one-two or even three-way blocks,
I won't venture to describe all the cordage because it is too difficult to find the equivalent terms in English.
To summarize very briefly (unless someone is interested in more details) I can point out that the halyards are used to pull up poles and sails and then they are no longer manoeuvred.
You can see the downhaul and the topping lift, the latter is used to support the boom when the mainsail is lowered.

However, if anyone is curious I can redo the drawing by hand with the English terms. But it's a long job so I would only do it if someone was interested.

The rigging is not yet complete, there is still a little something missing.

Thanks so much Flaxbybuck.

I really appreciate your words but I have to be realistic. I don't even think it's museum-worthy.

There are many compromises to make it RC, some I managed to hide, others less so.

I'm so impressed with your work and the model you are creating. This is truly a museum quality boat. Do you have a maritime museum lined up ready to receive it ? You really should. 😉

Good evening everyone.

Finally I talk about the sails.
After much research I chose poplin cotton, bought on Amazon from an Italian shop.
The intention was to get cotton for shirts.
I thought the plot was a little thicker but I was in a hurry, this job had been going on for years and I wanted to do the first tests in the water with the sails mounted, so I used what I received without sending it back.

I had never sailed. Zero experience.
The previous model had sails but they were not functional (just for beauty) it only sailed by motor.

I based it on my project but then I made many changes and tests with cardboard, as you can see in the first images.

I cut out the fabric and made two copies of each sail (I keep one for possible replacement).
There are two jibs, two mainsails and two topsail gaffs.
To sew the edge and to sew the "zips", sail cloth, cloth, panel (simulated) I asked my seamstress aunt for help.
I sewed the "gratile" (luff cord, boltrope) by hand onto each edge of the sails.

Nessun problema, piacere mio Alessandro.
The only person that you have inconvenienced is yourself!
One lives and learns😉
Only Stephen (Fireboat) may be able to help you move your gunboat from the Forum to a Build Blog. IF he has the time!!
Ciao, Doug😎