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To wmbc40
As to Kitty model .. it is your choice......

To luckyduck > write me please > tomarack@seznam.cz
Tom

I have built two Kitty models , this little thames barge can be made to look really good as a proper model on the water, it sails well and is a manageable size in comparison. Can anyone tell me where I can get a full set of sails made for my Celia Jane please?

thanks for the plans Tomarack. Yep, Kitty does not look suitable for me, but will look at Capricorn in more detail.

Hi,
As for the old plan on the sb Kitty, I think it's quality only suitable for building a small toy for fun. So - I am also building it for this purpose. The plan is simple, practically without the necessary details.
In addition to her, I have scratch- built 2 large models in 1:24 scale - the Capricorn model, according to the modified plan of H.I.Chapelle, very similar to the sb Giralda, and another model according to the Lady Daphne plan (1:28).
I am attaching a copy of my plan for Capricorn here.
I can recommend here pls> https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=131302&p=1

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1036890286476399

AMBO>https://www.facebook.com/groups/2659272094133382

Thanks Anthony - from all the comments below it has now slipped down my list of possible next models - I will keep your offer in mind though, thank you.

I have the plans and magazine build articles for the Kitty thames barge model, can help if required!

Thanks Dave, really helpful.

Hi bootle
On the barge I posted a pic of it has a 2kg keel of about 4 to 5 ins deep and about 6 to 7 ins long in a curved shape. The model is similar in size to your Will Everard. Make sure the keel is a good fit to the hull to prevent any weed getting caught. I make a silicon seal between my hulls and the keel which I have already made a good flush fit with plastic padding. I use a piece of threaded rod sealed into the keel and bent at the bottom to prevent it turning, then fed through a hole in the keel through a block of wood until above the waterline then another silicon seal and washer followed by a wing nut to tighten up. I use ex flashing lead for ballast placed loose initially to assess the correct amount then seal with casting resin. You need to remove some lead to allow for the weight of the resin and any internal bits like servos/batteries etc
Dave976

I have also been scratch-building a Thames Barge, 'Will Everard' ,1:48 scale (24" long), from Nexus Plans. It has been ongoing for a few years. Got to coax the sewing machinist into making the sails. Then the rigging to finish.
I intend to make a detachable keel and a rudder extension.
The rudder is ok but the keel I have no idea about. How long, what weight? Any help would be appreciated.

thanks for your valuable input Nerys.

Having built a number of Thames barges, both 1/24 and 1/32 as well as an auxiliary and some motor barges , my opinion is that they will not sail satisfactorily unless they have a keel of some sort and a drop rudder. I have found that my motor barges work best with a drop rudder.
Some people have tried using the leeboards and a ballasted hull, but even that doesn't work.I built my auxiliary so that all sails can be furled and she can emulate the latter days of the barge, when the auxiliaries might occasionally set a topsail and perhaps a few cloths of the main. I have ballasted her hull, but she will only sail,down wind and needs the motor the rest of the time The AMBO group is well worth joining, excellent source of information. I am afraid Mastman gave up a couple of years ago, a great loss as he not only produced a number of fibreglass hulls and plans, but all the barge specific fittings that nobody else makes. If you look up 'My harbour' on this site you will find pictures of most of my barges.

Nerys

Thanks Johnf for all your info - I had expected a rudder extension, and had hoped to avoid motor power. Still a lot of thinking to do, and when the sun is over the yardarm, a wee snifter may delay detailed thinking.🤔🤔

Hi Dave and Luckyduck,

Re Dave's last post, the problem with slow speeds and very limited scale rudder area is why most model barges sail with a temporary rudder extension below the hull in addition to the plug-in or drop keel.

These rudder extensions are often made in perspex and just like the keel are simply removed for storage or when displaying the model in exhibitions or regattas.

Model barges are often 1\16 or 1\24 scale to stay manageable - while water clearly cannot be scaled down. Hence the use of big non-scale keel and rudder extensions.

In very weedy conditions we are left with sailing only in very gentle winds without the non-scale keel, or indeed running with sails fully-reefed and on the auxiliary moter. After all, that is exactly what the latter-day full size barge skippers did!!

With best wishes Dr John F. Leeds and Bradford BBC. 😀😀😀

Just looked up Model Boats magazine - there is a company called Brown, Son and Ferguson Ltd, website - www.skipper.co.uk, who have a huge range of model plans - including one for a Thames barge - Lady Daphne. Don't know the detail and quality, but you need 3 plans. As they are nautical publishers, I would guess they have a good standard.

Hi Lucyduck,

AMBO are on Facebook - indeed I joined them last night and I seems Andy did likewise.

They seem a small and reclusive lot but good luck.

John F. 🤔🤔

Hi luckyduck
Glad you liked. Our pond is heavily weeded but we sail many yachts with identical dropped keels. The main problem is the rudder but for schooners and barges the rudders are integral with the hull so not a problem.
Sorry there is no plan for this model barge as it was scratch built from studying many pics of real barges and the builders own preferences.
As regards Kitty I know I have the plan in my clubs archives. I will look later and send you a pm.
dave976

I will be asking those FB people anyway.

Good idea Andy for National Maritime Museum - will do some research

thanks John - not on Facebook, so will have to do some searching

Thank you John. Will have a look



Found them, joined them. Looks pretty good

Hi Luckyduck and Andy.

I used to belong to an outfit called the Association of Model Barge Owners (AMBO) which is mainly based on the South of England.

Their website seems to have folded up just before the Pandemic but has been replaced by a Facebook Group under the same name.

I would suggest that you and any other members specifically interested in model Thames barges join if possible. A trader call Mastman used to specialise in barge plans and fibreglass hulls so you may well find such items through a notice on the site.

It's worth a try!!

Dr John F. Leeds and Bradford BBC. 😐😐😐

How about maritime museum is Greenwich? Shot in the dark, I know, but worth a try

Thanks Dave, the pictures ARE inspiring, the big keel below waterline is not. Massive weedtrap for me. Need to think this all through - any ideas where they got the basic plans please? The old plans for Kitty seem to be unobtainable, so it is either a kit, which I am not keen on, Sarik plans, or some other plans I can get hold of.

Hi luckyduck
Club sailing day today 13 Feb and one of our members turned up and sailed his scratch built Thames barge - minus sails this time but perhaps the pics will inspire you. There is some video on CreweMBC facebook page if you wish to see it on the water.
Cheers
Dave

I'm bookmarking this thread as I'd love to build a barge one day.
Keep it coming dear sailors.

Hope we will see a build blog, luckyduck, soon😀

Hi Dave976 - I see your pilot cutter is slightly different to mine - mine is based on Sarik's Katie - and compared to yours has a far bigger rudder, I would guess probably twice the size, and she responds very well to steering commands. All her ballast is internal, with the bulk central. I have yet to test her in strong winds, but they are fairly rare on our lake, normally a pleasant gentle breeze! Thanks for the guidance though, will have to give the sailing barge more thought.

Hi luckyduck
I originally tried that but the model would not steer as the long keel kept it in a straight line. Pics of both keels but I eventually used the attached keel shown in the second pic. It lets weed pass without snagging.
dave976

Thanks Dave 976 and Johnf. Even if I do have to add a keel of some sort, I would still aim to make the leeboards work. The Pilot Cutter has been good so far, but I have deliberately not fitted the topsail, as even fully balasted, I think it will be too much. With just main and 2 foresails she sails well. My thinking if I do have to go down the external keel route for the barge is to have false full length keel, with the weight near centre to avoid getting stuck in stays, but the full length would blend into the hull shape so as not to be a weed trap with a fin keel?

Hi luckyduck
That puts you in a good position to proceed. As regards being sufficient and if you are referring to ballast, I do believe you would need to add a great deal of internal ballast to keep your model upright. I see you already have a Pilot Cutter, as do I, and using internal ballast did not work for me. In fact I only just made it back to shore with the decks awash in the lightest of breezes. As you correctly surmise the keel need to be deep and heavy and not to scale.
dave976

Hi Dave,

As a scale-sail enthusiast, I can confirm that a Thames Barge can indeed sail well without a cumbersome and unrealistic long keel.

However, even with a lot of internal ballast you would then be limited to sailing in very gentle winds only. Otherwise, your barge could well be blown over by gusts and very possibly be sunk! I got my "Lockdown Dream" model back but I do speak from bitter experience!

That is why most model barges are fitted with removable keels. I have yet to see any model featuring working Lee Boards. They could well be of very limited effect due to the water being less dense nearer the surface.

My scale-sail books show possible ways to engineer working Lee boards - - but I suspect they are more trouble than they are worth.

With best wishes. Dr John F Leeds and Bradford BBC. 😀😀😀😀

Hi Dave976 - workings of the leeboards is not an issue for me, as I have spent a lot of time researching the Thames barges, and my mother used to sail on Reminder when she was setup for social sailing. As much as anything it is whether in a model the leeboards would be sufficient, knowing that when scaling down the real yachts, keels almost always have to be bigger, deeper and heavier than true scale.

Hi luckyduck
The Thames Sailing Barges are very distinctive and nostalgic. We have a couple in my Club and both have detachable drop keels and non working leeboards.
We have a static Billings barge which does make into a nice model as per the attached photo.
If you like scratch building then there are plans available and Kitty (enlarged) was used for our two sailing models.
Nerys, one of our Fleet Admirals, used to skipper barges and would I suspect be able to give detailed info on the workings.
I have never seen a model with working leeboards and would welcome hearing how you progress.
dave976