Hi Isaac.
I like your approach.

You're right horns and sirens are too much fun.
I'm thinking of putting a foghorn on my model under construction or in a future one.
For the moment, ready-made foghorn kits seem too expensive to me.
If I have time in the future, I will try to assemble one myself.

For LEDs and especially for their power supplies, if I can be of help, it will be a pleasure for me (even in pm).
In the meantime, if you feel like it, you can read the following topics.
You may find some useful information.
If you have the patience to read message n.4.
There are detailed explanations.
I think it could be useful to you.

https://model-boats.com/forum/135645

https://model-boats.com/forum/136310

Alessandro

Thank you for your input. I always consider other people experience, especially when it comes to electrical things. I am a Mechanical engineer, so I look at electronics and electricals as black boxes. Input in and output out. And I always confirm, check and confirm again before I connect things.

Yes, this boat does have a separate rudder servo. It is the primary mechanism for steering.

I have stripped all of the existing lighting ( they are too small and very low intensity, useless even in the evening ). I am replacing them with LEDs that will have their own LiPo 3S ( 11.1 volt ) batteries. I may go down to 2S if there is no visual difference.

I am also eliminating the bilge pump. It was just for show and there is no point in making it functional since all the upper deck hatches are low to the waterline and a good wave will flood the interior anyway.

As for the horn and sirens, I love them. They work great and make lots of noise. I re attached the big speaker to the inside of one of the smoke stacks.


Please keep commenting with technical observations.

👍

Isaac

Hi Isaac, I think this is fine.

you wrote:
"Got it. To be clear, snip only the red wire from two of the ESC/BEC, but leave the third one intact with the red wire.
then connect each to its own separate channel on the receiver."

All correct in my opinion.

you wrote:
"As an aside, I will add extension cables to each one of the ESC's, but snip and insulate the red from two of the extensions. This way the full configuration on the ESC's is retained."

Very good.


Sorry if I was too detailed in my explanations, don't be offended if you already knew all the things I told you, but I have noticed (on other occasions) that taking things for granted is wrong.
Furthermore, I like to analyze the reasons behind some technical choices.
Many modelers do what they have always seen done without even understanding or asking themselves why.

The diagram you posted is fine in my opinion.

I noticed you don't have a rudder servo on the receiver, I'm guessing you'll just use the motors to turn.
You have many loads attached to the receiver, you will surely have already checked that the sum of their maximum currents does not exceed the current tolerable by the receiver.
The currents of the lights (if LEDs) and the siren are usually very low, I don't know how much the pump can absorb. In any case, I would do a little check calculation if I were you.

I agree with your choice to put fuses in the circuit.
Not everyone agrees with the use of fuses. I'm one of those in favor of using fuses.
I would also put them between the motor and the esc (but I know I'm exaggerating).
If you are interested, some time ago there was a discussion in these topics.
They can be interesting for evaluating the positions to be assigned to the fuses and their ratings in Amperes.

https://model-boats.com/forum/130229
https://model-boats.com/forum/130156

Got it loud and clear and so it shall be done..


Thank you Lew.


Isaac

Correct. This issue is actually simple and should not need to be explained in great depth. Your receiver only needs ONE power source, period. Each ESC supplies power from their BEC. Each battery is a power source. Just choose which one you want to use.

Using multiple batteries (matched) is another issue, but you are not asking about that.

Lew
Florida 😎, USA

Lew / Allessandro

Got it. To be clear, snip only the red wire from two of the ESC/BEC, but leave the third one intact with the red wire.

then connect each to its own separate channel on the receiver.

Correct?


As an aside, I will add extension cables to each one of the ESC's, but snip and insulate the red from two of the extensions. This way the full configuration on the ESC's is retained.


Attached is the schematics that reflects this configuration.


Thank you all again



Isaac

Yes, Isaac, it would be better to cut the two red wires (central positive) for the reasons I told you in the previous message.

To isolate the two red cables (positive of the two BECs) you can use the method you prefer.
I advise you to cut (or remove) the positives on the extensions (male-female) never on the original BEC wiring.

Yes, snip the wire leaving a gap and insulate the ends so there is no chance of contact.

Better yet, pry the contact pin for the red wire and remove it from the 3 pin plug. This way you can reuse the ESC if needed by restoring the connection.

Lew
Florida ⛱️, USA

An explanation of what I want to do.

I have 3 brushed motors each having its own ESC / BEC controller.

There is one battery powering the entire drive system. All 3 ESC/BEC are in parallel to a single battery.

Each ESC/BEC is then connected to a separate channel on the receiver.


So my question was :

Should I snip the red wire of two of the ESC/BEC or is it OK to connect each to the receiver just like a regular servo.


Thanks

Isaac

Hi Isaac.

I wish I could help you but I may have misunderstood your questions and needs due to the translation, in which case please feel free to correct me.

So, first of all I take it for granted that this radio receiver has all the central positive pins in electrical continuity with each other.
I also take it for granted that all the negative pins are in electrical continuity with each other.
If it's not like that it changes everything so tell me. If you don't know you can easily check it.

I have to ask you a few questions, do ESCs have built-in BECs?
Maybe you already wrote it, if so sorry.

Are you using a single battery for all ESCs (common to the three ESCs) or do you intend to put one battery for each ESC?

In the first case (a single battery for all the ESCs) a single BEC is sufficient to power the receiver and the servomechanisms.
If you connect three BECs you provide three supplies in parallel.
If the three voltages coming from the three BECs are identical there are no problems (in my opinion) but it is a completely superfluous and disadvantageous solution.
You can make a voltage measurement between positive and negative of each BEC to verify this.
Two BECs are active (with related losses due to the Joule effect) to no avail.
The BEC lowers the battery voltage to what is needed to power the receiver and servos. In this transformation energy will be lost, more or less depending on the performance of the BEC.
All at the expense of battery life.
For this reason I power the receiver and servos with the correct voltage directly with a dedicated battery, but that's another matter.
In short, to answer your question (if I understood it correctly) putting three BECs in parallel, in the case in which these BECs receive energy from the same single battery it makes no sense.
The only advantage could be that if one BEC breaks you have the others as backup but it seems a bit small to me to justify such a configuration.
You could isolate the positives of two out of three BECs and leave only the negative and signal cables (which controls the ESC).

Let's talk about the second case only if you intend to do it, otherwise it is useless.
Even in this case a single BEC is sufficient but it might make more sense to connect them all to three, depending on some hypothetical specific needs.

I'll give you some advice, buy extensions like the ones in the photo if you don't already have them.
Get various male-male, female-female, male-female and Y-extension extensions, they will be very useful to you.
For example, if you want to isolate a positive you will insert the extension with the positive cut without damaging or tampering with the original wiring of the servos or BEC.
Extension cords will be very useful for easily carrying out voltage and current measurements whenever you need them.
If you want, I'll tell you how I use them to take measurements.

I like that you make these old radios work, I've never had one in my hands. It was an old AM transmitter but must have been good quality in my opinion.

Not sure what you are asking. You should only have one source of power going TO the receiver be it a battery OR an ESC OR only one of the ESCs if you have more than one.
Lew
Florida, USA

Back to another question.

I got the original 3 throttle transmitter to work. Thus I want each ESC to be connected as before to each channel on the radio ( 1,2,3 ). Do I still need to disconnect the red wire from two of the ESCs or can it be connected as any other servo ( 3 wires each ) to the receiver?


here is a picture of the original receiver set up.

I see 3 wires in each connector plug.


Thanks

Isaac

Great news.

I removed the Ace transmitter back and tested all the channels with separate servos. As before , the starboard throttle did not respond.

I took a closer look and found the the solder joint to the pot has completely severed and once I connected it temporarily it worked.

Yeh ………👍👍👍


I will have it reconnected properly and now will have the original three throttle control. One for each motor.


Isaac

I am thinking about repairing the bad throttle lever
or converting the old ACE radio entirely to run the three motors independently unless, I can improve the turning radius of this boat.


I am really not sure if differential thrust would significantly improve the turning radius of this big boat.

For now, I am playing with the rudder throw on the servo side.

😮☹️😔

Isaac

A quick video of the maiden voyage


It is running on a LiPo 2S ( 7.4V ) battery driving all 3 motors.

Notice the reverse thrust to stop the boat?

Isaac

Good news. The boat has had its renewed maiden voyage today. Everything worked. I removed some of the top structures for this test run.

However, with all three motors running, its turn radius is more like a battleship.


Since the original Ace Nautical commander is not functioning properly ( specifically the starboard throttle not responding) , I can’t input differential thrust. I may consider sending it for repairs, or try to modify an existing aircraft transmitter to have additional throttle lever.

In any case it does work per your suggestions


Isaac

Hi Isaac,
Looks like an interesting ESC you have found there👍
I note that it can control two motors, so you will not need three of them!
I would suggest one of these to control the two outer motors, this will keep them in synch.
And a second simpler (cheaper😉) single output ESC for the centre motor, which could then be used as an 'overdrive' if on a second control channel.

I wonder how they intend use of them in trucks and crawlers? All wheel drive perhaps?
Cheers, Doug😎
PS: Please start your new thread as a Build Blog. Then at the successful conclusion of the build there is a function in the Build Blog section which enables you to print out a booklet of the whole saga.😀
Looking forward to further developments.
All the best, Doug😎

Here is the new brushed motor ESC I’m thinking of to switch the clunky units that came with this old model.

As an FYI, the model was built back in the 1980’s from what I gather. Some item work and some do not.


I tore out most of the dead stuff ( it was a beautiful layout that the original builder did ) and am replacing items as I go.

I also ordered new LED lights to replace the tiny rice grain sized ones that were installed originally


All fun


I will start a new thread soon in the entire project



Isaac

All done for now


Modified the schematics, disabled two of the red control lines and all operating from a single throttle lever. Fuses will be purchased soon and inserted to the system per your recommendation. A single LiPo 2S (7.4v) 5200 mAh is driving it all. If more speed is needed, I will go to a 3S battery.


I did find a need for adjustments though on the ESCs. each motor starts to move a bit differently when starting to go from zero RPM. So far it is only a few RPMs and it looks manageable on this big 6 foot plus boat. But if needed, there are small potentiometers inside the old ESC that can be adjusted.


Failing that, I have a plan B to purchase a new large capacity ESC to drive all motors from that one unit. That will be so much smaller and cleaner than the current 1970's era controllers used right now.

Pictures enclosed. The wiring is functional, but not yet cleaned up. I will test in the water before deciding on the clean layout. It may all change if going to a single modern ESC.

Thank you all again


Isaac

Way to go Isaac👍
Just don't forget the fuses in the red wires from ESC to Motor and you'll be Good to go.😀
Looking forward to the Maiden Voyage.
Cheers, Doug😎

Got it Doug 👍


Modified schematic enclosed


Thanks

Isaac

Exactly so Isaac👍

😎

Doug


Got it.


So to be clear, power to the receiver should come either from the ESCs or a separate battery just to the receiver, but not both.


Thanks

Isaac

You're nearly there Isaac😉
Now all you need to do is to either remove the red wire from ESC3 to the receiver OR remove the 4.6V battery. One or the other!!

Oh, and one other recommendation; fuses in the red power lines from the motor battery to each ESC. Helps to prevent burnouts in motor and/or ESC if the propeller snags and stalls on rubbish in the pond. Fuse value should be a few amps less than the stall current value of the motor.

Cheers, Doug😎

Based on the input I got ( thank you ), I modified my schematics to include the proposed ESC control wiring as well as the other channels I will use.

I decided one power switch to the motor battery and one for the receiver will do.

Attached is the new Schematic. I hope I got it right.
👍👍👍

Thanks again 😎

I got the three motor controllers all relocated in front of their motors on a separate board.

The receiver connections are also separated. I’ll make a new harness for the receiver per your schematics and suggestions.

Attached is a photo of the partial setup

And….. the rats nest I made of the original wiring which will be cleaned up👍👍👍👍

The original builder did a fantastic job with the wiring. It was a work of art. But most is redundant with current technology



Isaac

Doug


Many thanks for your explanation as well as others commenting.

I never dealt with three controllers, thus I defer to the folks on this forum. You all have been extremely helpful. I now understand the connection to the receiver when 3 controllers are hooked up together to a single throttle.

I’ll make a new harness.


Isaac

Hi Isaac,
Re "I am still puzzled on how the BEC will work with one wire disconnected?".
Sorry, I thought I had clearly explained the difference between BEC and ESC.
The ESC (Electronic Speed Controller) is what actually controls the speed of your motor and thus the boat. It takes it's power directly from your main drive battery, in your case the 2S or 3S LiPo. 7.4V or 11.1V nominal.
The BEC (Battery Eliminator Circuit) is an independent circuit within the ESC that takes the input voltage from the main battery, in your case the 2S or 3S LiPo, and reduces it to 5 or 6V to supply the receiver. The BEC label on your speed controller is simply a marketing label from the days that a BEC was a new development and novelty. THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT YOU DO NOT WANT THE BEC TO WORK IF YOU ARE USING A SEPARATE BATTERY FOR THE RECEIVER!
You cannot connect more than one BEC voltage to the receiver (via the 3 wire plug) or it will cause problems.
This does not affect the connection to your drive battery which then supplies power to your motor(s) according to the TX throttle commands.
Hope that's a bit clearer
As you say, your schematic is basically correct. BUT. it does not include the details of the 3 wire cable from the ESCs to the RX, which include the red wires which you MUST disconnect if you are using a separate RX battery as you have confirmed. The Devil is in the detail Isaac😉
Cheers, Doug😋
PS: being a retired electronic/communications engineer I envy you guys your expertise with mechanical gubbins with which I struggle. Especially what speed and which tool to use with my mini lathe for which metal and task.

Thank you all. I like this lively technical discussion.

Being a Mechanical engineer, anything more than two electrical wires is outside my comfort zone. 😂


I will re label my schematics, however it is still correct.


Isaac

ISAAC a good afternoon
the picture that you show is definetely an old ESC without any doubt
regards
HermanK

Doug


There is an element of accuracy in your assessment. The boat currently has 3 black boxes that say BEC on it. And that is what allows me to throttle the motors.

In my world or airplanes, I only use ESC to control the motors. But this is new to me.


I like your suggestion and also do use a separate 4.8 v battery for the receiver.

I am still puzzled on how the BEC will work with one wire disconnected?

Thank you


Isaac👍

Hi Isaac,
I think you've become a little confused with your BECs and ESCs.
What you connect to the motor is the ESC; Electronic Speed Controller.
The BEC; Battery Eliminator Circuit, is a separate internal circuit of the ESC which provides power to the receiver (RX) if you don't want to use a separate RX battery.

The basic You have circuit in your PDF should work BUT!
You MUST MUST MUST disconnect two of the BEC connections to the RX; by disconnecting two of the RED wires in the 3 wire plugs going from the ESC to the RX.
Otherwise the 3 BEC voltages will be connected in parallel and will fight each other.
Maybe causing damage to the ESCs or RX, or at least causing unstable operation.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!😉

My preference in this case would be to supply the RX from a separate 4.8V NiMH battery, and disconnecting ALL 3 BEC wires from the RX.
Leave the little slide switches connected and make sure that they are ON before first switching on the TX and then the RX to conduct your tests.
Bon chance Mon ami🤞
Cheers, Doug😎

I just tested each motor and its own BEC. Connected to a 2S 5200 MAh battery. All three were run separately with full throttle control forward and reverse.

I used a Spektrum 6 channel system and it worked fine.


next, I will make new harnesses to connect all the BECs to the receiver and in parallel to a single battery to drive all motors and two servos ( that's only 3 channels ). I will add a separate circuitry for the lighting.

attached is a simple schematic I am proposing.😎

Making progress.


Isaac

Guys


Yes, the easiest way is to ditch the old radio, wiring, BEC’s and start fresh.


I will experiment with one motor and one BEC just to see if it even responds.

The only thing I would lose is the twin throttle sticks going to a Spektrum radio.


I will tie all 3 motors to a single stick


Isaac

Out with the old and in with the new!

I was given a Krick Dusseldorf fireboat (talk about complexity) and sn 8 channel Spektrum radio (not enough channels) that was partially working. I think the previous owner probably got frustrated with his Covid-19 build. It was useless to photograph the wiring except for using photos for before and after.

What I did is stripped everything out and started anew. Technology and techniques change (as well as personal preferences). So my approach to a rebuild is to take a fresh approach.

Lew
Florida ⛱️, USA

If you just service, clean and regrease the motors regrease the shaft for the propeller. Regrease the rudder shaft. Puts a new surveying a new speed control but before you renew anything take pictures of all the wiring how it set up so you've got no idea because guarantee you to try to wire it up again and it won't work. I've been doing it for years and I've tried to read wire a vintage boat and are it all the old wiring out a. I forgot to take pictures so I had to go for one of the simplest wiring diagrams going which is basically the old faithful for two motors. But you've got be very careful because if you try and do it yourself, you're even the most experience people will get it wrong still. Especially if it's a an old kit like that the motors might even be david what they call daisy chains which is not the way I would have done it that was have a done it back in the day. Beats different now on the

thanks Lew. For some stupid reason I pictured 2 sticks next to each other of the left side of the radio and a third stick on the right side of the radio.
Today i used my sunglasses but yesterday I was using my snow shovel here on Long Island
Len

Originally I used the Ace Nautical Commander on this boat but changed to 2.4ghz radio. Physically a great transmitter for multi motor model boats. Too bad it is old technology that it is not carried on.

Lew
Florida, USA

I use the same setup on my Wiesel schnellboot. Two mid motors switched together on/off for foward only, outer motors on ESCs.

To operate the transmitter is very simple. Hold the transmitter as per the photo.

Both thumbs up/down independently or in tandem for outer motors ESCs controls. Right thumb left/right (horizontal) for steering.

Two options for switching the inner motor(s) on/off:

1. Set the switch channel to one of the upper left switches and use your left index finger to flip the switch while holding the left stick in place with the left thumb (if the left stick is spring loaded centering).

2. Use the left stick horizontal channel to switch the inner motor(s).

Lew
Florida 😎 (but today a lot of rain), USA

Len


Here is my transmitter for a 3 motored boat. I did not build the boat though.Its an old ACE RC system that I got with the huge 6 ft boat I am restoring.

The center motor has a slider on the left side, so it is mostly running at a fixed RPM. The two throttle levers control each left and right motor independently. So you only need your left thumb to throttle up or down. or thumb and forefinger to create a differential thrust.


Isaac

Lew, if I understand correctly you have 2 sticks that control the outer motors. How do you accomplish this? Do you have enough fingers to control the steering and independent motor controls at the same time ?😉
Len

Lew Z
That is indeed à 3rd possibility i havén’t thought about. This is thé beauty of this international forum with So much idéas

I have great performance with the following setup for my PT61 (PT gunboat, 1/20 scale, 47 in. long):

The two outer motors each have ESCs and the inner motor is controlled by a switch on its own chanel - forward only.
No need to run 3 motors in reverse. Great for slow speed maneuvers with having independent outer motors control.

To accelerate, gradually move the two (outer) throttles forward then flip the center motor switch on. This gives smooth acceleration.

I have photos and a schematic on the PT61 in my harbor list and on my web site.

Lew
Florida, USA

https://www.lewsmodelboats.org/PT-Index.htm

Isaac a good morning
I do have a couple of boats with 2 motors and there i use 1 esc. But if youu do have a Twin stick on your system you could use 2esc's.The boats i got with 3 motors i use 2 esc's ;
1 esc for the outside motors
1 esc for the middle motor which is in some cases a bigger motor.
I do not see the necessity for 3 esc's
but this is my personal thought
Success with the refurbishing

What a beast! My best guess will be connecting them in parallel resulting in 2 wires going to the esc.
Correct my fellow builders if I'm wrong.