SAIL CONTROL AND ADJUSTMENT SYSTEMS FOR SCALE MODELS
The first sail control system I am considering is the one for the square sail.
I should note that I haven't actually built this yet, as the square sail on my previous model was fixed and could not be controlled.
In a real ship, the yard is controlled (shifted to the left or right) by running rigging known as braces.
The sail itself is adjusted using the tack and the sheet.
In modeling, we can simplify this by combining the controls for the braces and the tack/sheet.
The diagram (a quick sketch, though I plan to redraw it properly) shows the setup from an overhead view.
I envisioned using a single winch (a standard servo arm would likely be unsuitable here) with two drums.
One drum winds the sheet (connected to the corresponding brace) for the left side, while the other winds the tack (connected to the corresponding brace) for the right side—or vice versa, depending on the wind direction.
Rotating the winch in one direction winds up one line while unwinding the other; reversing the rotation produces the opposite effect, causing the yard to pivot around the mast.
I believe a system like this could work.
I look forward to any comments, images, or videos you might have regarding systems that have already been built.
My next post will cover the system for maneuvering and adjusting the jib.
I should note that I haven't actually built this yet, as the square sail on my previous model was fixed and could not be controlled.
In a real ship, the yard is controlled (shifted to the left or right) by running rigging known as braces.
The sail itself is adjusted using the tack and the sheet.
In modeling, we can simplify this by combining the controls for the braces and the tack/sheet.
The diagram (a quick sketch, though I plan to redraw it properly) shows the setup from an overhead view.
I envisioned using a single winch (a standard servo arm would likely be unsuitable here) with two drums.
One drum winds the sheet (connected to the corresponding brace) for the left side, while the other winds the tack (connected to the corresponding brace) for the right side—or vice versa, depending on the wind direction.
Rotating the winch in one direction winds up one line while unwinding the other; reversing the rotation produces the opposite effect, causing the yard to pivot around the mast.
I believe a system like this could work.
I look forward to any comments, images, or videos you might have regarding systems that have already been built.
My next post will cover the system for maneuvering and adjusting the jib.
@AlessandroSPQR is it too much. . .? I know you said BRIEF. I did edit some descriptions out
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
Thanks, Ross. I thought you were going to include the photos, videos, and a brief written summary, but instead you reposted every single message exactly as they were—hahaha, that's awesome. You're really thorough.
First off, this block and tackle system is just to keep with scale of the full sized BLUENOSE. The size of the string used for the main sheet is 1.5 mm. It is definitely oversized for the work it is supposed to do. It is rated at 95 pounds break strength. 6 strands of it would be 570 pounds.
I did find photos of the block and tackle on full sized BLUENOSE. Understanding how it works, I tried to create the same mechanical design, in miniature. Looking at the block and tackle that I rigged, it looks wrong.
I will un-do the rigging of the block and tackle and clean up the rigging of the sheet.
weight of sheeting
If my sheet was scaled up to the BLUENOSE, it would be a 36mm rope. BLUENOSE appears to be using about a 20mm rope. I have a 0.34mm braided thread I will try, to see if that will lighten the load on the block and tackle.
My counterweight is 1kg. I will start to lighten it to see what force is needed to open the the block and tackle.
When I change over to the 0.34 mm line I will check to see if it needs less load to open up the block and tackle.
A 0.75mm string is rated for 41 pounds. That is approximately the total weight of the model. 0.34 mm string will be one quarter of the 0.75 cross section, so maybe 10 pounds?? With 6 lines in the block and tackle to produce rating of 60 pounds or 1.5 times the weight of the entire vessel.
So, first job is to get the block and tackle working better.
At least it works, TEST #1: PASSED
On to test #2
I did find photos of the block and tackle on full sized BLUENOSE. Understanding how it works, I tried to create the same mechanical design, in miniature. Looking at the block and tackle that I rigged, it looks wrong.
I will un-do the rigging of the block and tackle and clean up the rigging of the sheet.
weight of sheeting
If my sheet was scaled up to the BLUENOSE, it would be a 36mm rope. BLUENOSE appears to be using about a 20mm rope. I have a 0.34mm braided thread I will try, to see if that will lighten the load on the block and tackle.
My counterweight is 1kg. I will start to lighten it to see what force is needed to open the the block and tackle.
When I change over to the 0.34 mm line I will check to see if it needs less load to open up the block and tackle.
A 0.75mm string is rated for 41 pounds. That is approximately the total weight of the model. 0.34 mm string will be one quarter of the 0.75 cross section, so maybe 10 pounds?? With 6 lines in the block and tackle to produce rating of 60 pounds or 1.5 times the weight of the entire vessel.
So, first job is to get the block and tackle working better.
At least it works, TEST #1: PASSED
On to test #2
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
To the top, the DOUBLE BLOCK
To the bottom, the TRIPLE BLOCK on the MAIN BOOM
The red is the container full of water, the counterweight for the test
The main sheet is extended out
To the bottom, the TRIPLE BLOCK on the MAIN BOOM
The red is the container full of water, the counterweight for the test
The main sheet is extended out
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
Top down view of the MAIN WINCH connected by the MAIN SHEET, to the DOUBLE BLOCK that would be on the deck
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
As promised, the MAIN SAIL BOOM with triple block & double block (no sails in place).
To the left vertically, is the LOWER MAIN MAST
To the right horizontally, is the MAIN BOOM
To the far right is the MAIN WINCH
To centre lower is the board supporting the counter weight for the test
To the left vertically, is the LOWER MAIN MAST
To the right horizontally, is the MAIN BOOM
To the far right is the MAIN WINCH
To centre lower is the board supporting the counter weight for the test
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
Next up will be bench test of the main boom. The excitement there will be the triple block that the main sheet runs through, the same as full sized BLUENOSE. The block is walnut wood, the sheaves are birch. The sheet travel length is about 120 cm.
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
This was just the test on the bench, but it is radio controlled.
sail from the previous video is at the top of the photo
servos & switches near top,
receiver left side below it,
motors batteries, right below,
receiver battery, blue,
double drum winch, lower right
sail from the previous video is at the top of the photo
servos & switches near top,
receiver left side below it,
motors batteries, right below,
receiver battery, blue,
double drum winch, lower right
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
Alessandro
I don't have the capacity to move any larger video but this is it under radio control
Little stick in the middle is the position of the leech of the foresail
Tall stick is where the main mast will be
Stick on the other side is the luff of the foresail
I don't have the capacity to move any larger video but this is it under radio control
Little stick in the middle is the position of the leech of the foresail
Tall stick is where the main mast will be
Stick on the other side is the luff of the foresail
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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Alessandro,
Firstly, I am using 5 winches. 3 winches are single drum. 2 are double drum.
The single drums are:
1) jumbo jib, lowest of the 3 jibs
2) foremast winch
3) mainmast winch
These operate in the conventional manner that you are familiar with, a single sheet to the boom. The JUMBO JIB on the Bluenose has a boom. Note that, with the winch motors all the same, the single drum design is much bigger than the double drum design. The single drum gathers up and releases much more line than the double drum, just as you would expect.
The double drums are the special use drum. The sails controlled by these 2 winches are high above the deck. The sails aloft must go AROUND another object to move from side to side, (unlike the single drum boom controlled sails lower to the deck). The JIBS winch must control 2 sails, JIB TOPSAIL & JIB AROUND the luff of the JUMBO JIB below them. The JIBS winch will carry 4 sheets
1) JIB TOPSAIL port sheet
2) JIB TOPSAIL starboard sheet
3) JIB port sheet
4) JIB starboard sheet
The good part is that the travel distance is short, so the drum can be small. Yes, in this case, one drum takes up a pair of starboard sheets while the opposite drum releases the pair of port sheets, and vice versa when the motor is reversed.
The last double drum is the one that you inspired. The STAYSAIL winch. This is the most complex of the winches. The STAYSAIL winch must GUIDE the luff of the STAYSAIL back from the FOREMAST, along the side of both FORESAILS, behind both FORESAILS and forward to the FOREMAST, on the other side from it's start point. I believe that in my build blog there is a video demostrating the movement of the STAYSAIL, being tested on the bench.
This is alot of information to absorb. Let me know which part is confusing and I will clarify further
Firstly, I am using 5 winches. 3 winches are single drum. 2 are double drum.
The single drums are:
1) jumbo jib, lowest of the 3 jibs
2) foremast winch
3) mainmast winch
These operate in the conventional manner that you are familiar with, a single sheet to the boom. The JUMBO JIB on the Bluenose has a boom. Note that, with the winch motors all the same, the single drum design is much bigger than the double drum design. The single drum gathers up and releases much more line than the double drum, just as you would expect.
The double drums are the special use drum. The sails controlled by these 2 winches are high above the deck. The sails aloft must go AROUND another object to move from side to side, (unlike the single drum boom controlled sails lower to the deck). The JIBS winch must control 2 sails, JIB TOPSAIL & JIB AROUND the luff of the JUMBO JIB below them. The JIBS winch will carry 4 sheets
1) JIB TOPSAIL port sheet
2) JIB TOPSAIL starboard sheet
3) JIB port sheet
4) JIB starboard sheet
The good part is that the travel distance is short, so the drum can be small. Yes, in this case, one drum takes up a pair of starboard sheets while the opposite drum releases the pair of port sheets, and vice versa when the motor is reversed.
The last double drum is the one that you inspired. The STAYSAIL winch. This is the most complex of the winches. The STAYSAIL winch must GUIDE the luff of the STAYSAIL back from the FOREMAST, along the side of both FORESAILS, behind both FORESAILS and forward to the FOREMAST, on the other side from it's start point. I believe that in my build blog there is a video demostrating the movement of the STAYSAIL, being tested on the bench.
This is alot of information to absorb. Let me know which part is confusing and I will clarify further
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
Alessandro
Yes, I will reproduce the earlier photos and description here, shortly.
For now, today's work
Yes, I will reproduce the earlier photos and description here, shortly.
For now, today's work
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
Liked by AlessandroSPQR
SAIL CONTROL AND ADJUSTMENT SYSTEMS FOR SCALE MODELS
This topic has been covered frequently, but often in a sporadic or piecemeal fashion.
We recently discussed it in a thread—titled "Sailing ship 'full-rigged ship', 'Af Chapman', now 'Dunboyne'"—that was actually unrelated to this specific subject (I’ll include a link at the end of this post).
While talking about the Af Chapman, we went off-topic and began discussing sail control systems for RC sailing models.
Ross contributed some very interesting ideas.
I’d hate to lose that information; in fact, I’d like to be able to find it easily when I need it. Buried in that other thread—along with other bits scattered here and there—it would be hard to track down.
That is why I want to use this thread to discuss "systems that regulate and control the sails of RC sailing models, ranging from simple sloops and ketches to schooners and full-rigged ships."
Contributions from anyone who has built—or is currently building—an RC sailing model would be greatly appreciated.
Since the subject isn't exactly simple, I encourage you to include sketches, photos, and videos alongside your written descriptions whenever possible.
Personal experiences are incredibly useful, but so are ideas that haven't yet been put into practice.
I’ll pick up the conversation where I left off in the aforementioned thread.
I had prepared some diagrams and was about to post them there, but I’d prefer to put them in a dedicated thread; it seems more logical and useful.
Ross, if you’re willing, could I ask you to repost the photos you shared there, along with a brief description?
https://model-boats.com/forum/169185
We recently discussed it in a thread—titled "Sailing ship 'full-rigged ship', 'Af Chapman', now 'Dunboyne'"—that was actually unrelated to this specific subject (I’ll include a link at the end of this post).
While talking about the Af Chapman, we went off-topic and began discussing sail control systems for RC sailing models.
Ross contributed some very interesting ideas.
I’d hate to lose that information; in fact, I’d like to be able to find it easily when I need it. Buried in that other thread—along with other bits scattered here and there—it would be hard to track down.
That is why I want to use this thread to discuss "systems that regulate and control the sails of RC sailing models, ranging from simple sloops and ketches to schooners and full-rigged ships."
Contributions from anyone who has built—or is currently building—an RC sailing model would be greatly appreciated.
Since the subject isn't exactly simple, I encourage you to include sketches, photos, and videos alongside your written descriptions whenever possible.
Personal experiences are incredibly useful, but so are ideas that haven't yet been put into practice.
I’ll pick up the conversation where I left off in the aforementioned thread.
I had prepared some diagrams and was about to post them there, but I’d prefer to put them in a dedicated thread; it seems more logical and useful.
Ross, if you’re willing, could I ask you to repost the photos you shared there, along with a brief description?
https://model-boats.com/forum/169185
Liked by RossM
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