Boatshed,
you have to speak as you find with these things. Clearly, the model has been improved but not enough yet.
It's only fair that we are honest with suppliers. I haven't looked at his deck fittings, but if they are straight off a 3D printer they too will need a lot of work to correct and improve the surfaces. it's not offensive to say so, it's just the truth.

Martin

Hi mastman,

I saw your comment that you wrote, I have copied and pasted it below.
********************************************
Your right about the madhouse cant see how people can run things down on here without seeing the actual goods any way thats another matter.
*********************************************
I did write about the shape of the wherry hull was wrong. I am not into sailing boats, am more into MTB's and I power boat hulls. I know I hadn't seen the actual hull in the flesh so to speak. All I saw was the picture that had been posted for the Wherry hull that was for sale. I had just come home from Norfolk and just seen a Wherry moored in Potter Heigham. I commented that the shape was wrong because of the way the bow of the hull swept up so high. I have posted the picture I saw from which I commented on. I am sorry if I did offend you but it was just that I din't see the shape as being correct. Once again I am sorry to have offended you. I also said about other parts being made on a 3D printer. Onc e again I did think that resin ones I have seen on ebay were of a better finish quality than the 3D printed ones. it seems that I have put a cat amongst the pigeons with my remarks. I am sorry to have offended you. Regards BOATSHED.

Dave, I'm sorry, but that is the wrong shape at the upper level and I can see at a glance that there are asymmetries to the sections. I have a plan of Gleaner in front of me and there are major discrepancies in the shape.
Of course, that won't necessarily stop it sailing well enough although may make it want to go one way easier than the other.
If I could draw on this thing I'd put some rings round the areas of concern so you can see what I mean, but I lost Illustrator and Photoshop ages ago in a machine repair and never got it back.

Thanks for the extra pics.

Martin

Hi Folks hres some more pics cant seem to a clear pic without reflections

They sail really well I one i use i use to put the transmitter inside the boat lower the mast and tuck the boat under my arm.

Hi Dave,
as Arron is the name on the facebook chat heading I assumed, reasonably, that he is the one to talk to.
It's perfectly possible to see faults in a product without actually having it in one's hand. I can see that the light reflections down the side show the sides to be not fairly curved. Years in the car design/prototyping game have ensured that (I, too, am a tool/patternmaker of many years experience, from 1/500th city models to full size Bugatti design models). I have a good eye and both are telling me that hull in the picture I was sent isn't top drawer. The top edge of the hull is very woolly, not smoothly trimmed, but the main objection is that it's not clinker and that is a major problem for a wherry, considering only Albion was carvel. With a clinker model we could have a selection of different craft. With carvel, every model would be Albion, a little tedious at the pondside, I'm sure you would agree. Perhaps you could produce a pattern by gluing planks on to the basic GRP structure? Then re-mould. To counter the balance of such a big sail in a blow you will also need a fin keel, but that's down to the builder really, though your experiments with waterline would be useful for buyers of the hull as to weights required, etc.
I don't wish to pee on your bonfire, but with a history of so many very good (and obviously so) GRP hulls on the market, we have come to expect a bang-on quality from the word go. Of course, any company new or old, who are prepared to listen to criticism and act on it are more than welcomed.
Perhaps some different photos of the hull would satisfy us as to its shape and moulding quality?
If it were a lot better than that one photo shows, I would be prepared to buy one still and then glue suitable planks to it to get my clinker model if that proves possible. I can't really say fairer than that.


Cheers,
Martin

Hi Dave thanks for your response, I do like the fin idea for the ballast plus there's no ugly bulp sticking out the bottom spoiling the lines.
That's a good weight of fibreglass your using so it must be the light not doing you any favours in the picture making the hull look distorted.
I have been researching the wherry for sometime now for a future build at 1.12 scale with clinker hull .
Cheers
Ron

Hi Ron
Your right about the madhouse cant see how people can run things down on here without seeing the actual goods any way thats another matter.
The Picture are not brill the Hull is rounded with no collapses hard to get a picture of the hull. The weight is 300gm/2 the hull is layed up in 2 layers the reason for the fin down the middle is so that no external ballast is needed.

Hi Dave and welcome to the mad house, looking at the picture of the hull the hull sides look like they are collapsing, what weight of fibreglass are you using for the hull?
What is the finished thickness of the hull?
Is there a reason for the fin running the length of the hull ?
Ron

Hi Martin
this is Dave the owner of Mastman Models Arron is only a helper.
Even though I am a toolmaker never Learn`t Cad was a night mare to learn that for the 3d Machines along with the CNC machine.
The Wherry Hull is already Trimmed to Deck Level just needs the stringers put round the Hull and plonk a deck on.
I would Gladly make a clinker Hull of a wherry if there where more hours in the day.
Any Volunteers 😁

Ron, I really can't get into GRP moulding due to the mess and the stink. My last GRP work was rebuilding the rear corners of first, a large canal cruiser and secondly, my Reliant Fox 4 wheel van, both, of course, outdoors. I will make a wherry in clinker to the Gleaner plans in Black Sailed Traders and then, if Arron hasn't redone his model by then you can mould it in GRP if you still fancy it. But it has to join all the other jobs I set myself first!
Cheers,
Martin

Arron, the first thing to do is make the pattern a clinker construction. Your website showed that you were using CAD to develop plank shapes. I have no idea if that's possible, but if you can do CAD and it is possible why is the model carvel?
Secondly the sides show a great deal of wobbliness to the shape. What car designers would describe as "flabbiness". There is no strength to the form. it goes in and out. Maybe the layup is not thick enough in that area. The side view isn't bad, if a little indistinct. Maybe in the trimming, but then a well laid up hull will trim much better. There should be a sheer line moulded in to which the deck level can be trimmed.
I'm sure anyone wanting a model of Albion will be delighted to find a GRP hull at last, but for a wider audience you would have been better off taking a little longer and making a clinker version. Wherries were so varied in length/tonnage that a clinker model could cover as many as 3 popular scales at the extremes.
BTW, I didn't say 3D was all you did, only that as a young guy it was very likely 3d printed since you will have learned the necessary CAD. I wish my son could do the same as he has 3 printers already, but can only use free files.
If I could do CAD, I would be dangerous

Cheers,
Martin

Hi Everyone yes most of my parts are 3d Printed and to westquay answer no that is not all i know i am a skilled toolmaker by trade.
As regards to the wherry hull i would like some feed back on how to improve it ?

That hull is shocking Martin I would have been ashamed to have shown that to someone never mind a customer, don't think I will be ordering from them.
I would be happy to help you regarding the mould Martin

If I did make a 1/16th scale clinker wherry, Gleaner, to be precise, would anyone on here be interested in using it as a master for a GRP mould?
Fee would be 2 free mouldings.

Martin
edited to say, "And the original back!"

Just heard from Arron at Mastman Models about his new wherry. He sent me this picture. OK, it's not the one in the previous pictures, but it isn;'t clinker, which he said it was, though he now denies it and that side looks a bit (as we called it in car design) "flabby", but the sheer is better. But, I had an Albion, I don't want another carvel wherry, dammit.

Martin

All I get is a single page with dozens of headings on it, each another single page and if I click home I get Not found. Not impressive. I get no sign in/log on, etc.
I think some of the items are 3Dprinted, but they are very cheap, so I reckon he has his own machines. My son does and says he can produce stuff cheaper by far than Shapeways.,etc. The guy behind Mastman seems to be unusually young, so 3D print would seem to be all he knows. But he needs to improve that wherry out of all recognition before he deserves to sell even one.
Wherries were occasionally painted green where that one in the pictures above is blue.
A read of Black Sailed Traders is all you need to know about wherries and it has good drawings of Gleaner, a "proper" clinker wherry. it has sections, so any model can be done from it. I am considering making one in 1/16th scale, using one layer of 1/16th" sheet ply for the twist, with a second to thicken the plank to a scale 2" thickness. it would be immensely strong too.
I'm almost looking forward to it now.

Cheers,
Martin

Agreed Boatshed, it's a strange site altogether 😲 Poor navigation and
I hate being constantly bombarded with demands to Log in via some social Platform 😡 MBW is the only 'Social Site' I need 😉
Cheers Doug 😎

Many of those parts look like they have been made on a 3D printer and not very professional. Not like parts that are made from resin and nicely finished. Some pictures are very badly focused and blurred.

Have a look at this ---https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mastman+models&oq=Mastman+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.25194j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8------ Loads of info here.
Have a browse👍🤓

nothing has been ruined boatshed, as you know when we take on a new build that we like to be sure things are correct to the real boats and if we are to part with our hard earned money things need to be right in the first place and not need loads of work to put it right before you can start building.
CB90 i'm guessing that your farther was the original build that was in the model boats magazines back in 1985, it was coming across this article that got me intrigued in these boats and have been researching ever since if you have any more info on your fathers builds that would be great.
cheers
Ron

I am truly sorry if I have thrown a spanner in the works. I saw the picture and was surprised on the height the bow went. I do spend a lot of time up on the Norfolk Broads. The Avatar I have is my boat that I have moored in Hebert Woods Boat yard in Potter Heigham. I have seen the Wherries on the river many times and just had to point the error out. Once again I'm sorry to have ruined your dream of getting the correct model.

Even single masted and sailed vessels sail well without digging in at the bow.Lateen or triangular sail pattern. Carvel or clinker seems to make no odds. However I believe round bottomed hulls get pulled lower in the water when moving through it. That seemed to be the case with a Jetex boat I made as a lad. The outrigger booms at deck level dragged in the water under power. I chined the hull and it planed with the booms clear which seems to prove the point👍

My Father made a Wherry see attached pictures. There is a lot of research required for an accurate model, note the sail winch has to swing out of the way for the mast to fold down, the real mast is counter balanced so it can be raised and lowered.
Also note a Wherry is never painted green! The keel and weight distribution can help the forward mast position and a tendency for the bow to be low in the water on models.

My Dad also made a large scale version which was displayed outside of the Norfolk Wherry Museum

Boatshed, Ron...yes that is the model I've shown an interest in, but frankly, if that's the one he's offering, I'm not interested! it costs no more to make a correct one than a bad 'un and that's seriously bad. I've no wish to spend my time making right somebody else's work. it's why I stopped building kits when I was 8 years old!
Damned shame. I thought we'd struck gold. But that's a turd and I ain't spending time trying to polish it!

Cheers,
Martin

we dont have our models as yet boatshed we have been searching the net and other forums looking for a grp mould supplier for the wherry model, it just turned out that me and martin have been looking for the same thing and have been comparing notes on here.
i see from the pictures you have posted that you are correct about the bow and this is something that would need correcting in the build .
cheers
Ron

Have you got any single pictures of the model of your Wherry.
I have seen them up on the Norfolk Broads, and the pictures you have posted seem to over accentuated the bow on the boat. I'm not being picky but I haven't seen one with a bow that slopes up that much. I have posted a couple of pictures and they don't seem to be that prominent.

Martin is this the one that you have ordered ?

Just learned of another book about Wherries...The Norfolk Wherry : its construction, evolution and history Hardcover – 1953. By G Colman Green.

BUT, ebay has one at 60 quid! And none on abebooks or amazon.
Damn. Where are all these internet scanned books when you need 'em? Deep in the mysterious cloud, I suppose. Hmph, back to me chisels.

Martin

Haha, bang on. 39"x11"x5" facility internally for 9lbs of lead. I have that here. Just asking him if it's clinker or carvel. But I think the name's down for one. £60 seems very reasonable too.

Cheers,
Martin

Edited to say it's not my birthday until late July, it's just an early present, although the lady says "You don't get it till your birthday"
But thanks anyway guys.

Alles gute zum Geburtstag Martin 👍

I came home from Potter Heigham in Norfolk this morning and one of the last 2 original black sailed Wherries was moored up there for visitors to go aboard and be shown round it and be told it's history.

Happy birthday Martin🎂

Well, chaps, it seems we have found one. A fellow called Mastman Models has developed one and will be PMing me shortly about it. I learned of it from a gent on "another place" who says it sails well too. So, as soon as I know anything I will report back here. He's hoping next month or even sooner. Looks promising.

Cheers,
Martin

So far we have found this if it rings any bells with anyone

Hi,

I believe IVOR Broughton sold his business to Dave Metcalf when he (Ivor) retired.
Dave in turn sold off a lot of (if not all) his range to Andy at Models By Design. Unfortunately having checked the web the Wherry hull is no longer listed.
Regards,
Dave

Hello Martin
I wish you luck in your search but I am sure that if you find a hull supplier he will have sales of more than one when the news gets out. There is possibly someone out there as we speak carving a hull mould.
Good luck Chris

My dear wife offered to buy me a wherry hull for a birthday present, but I can't find any for sale. Does anyone know of any or even have one kicking around looking for repair, refit, new owner? Or do you know where the Ian Broughton moulds went, or did Nigan Craft ever produce his one?
There has to be a clinker wherry out there somewhere, surely

Cheers,
Martin

Just sent an oldish advert for a GRP wherry by Ian Broughton, but no sign of him now.
Any ideas anyone? Have you heard of him? His address was in Lingwood, Norwich. it was a very complete set of mouldings, very cheap in 1/16th scale.

Cheers,
Martin

Haha, gotta get the lady wife going at her machine yet, Chris. She has her own bit of the workshop, just in case.She has a modern-ish machine and an ancient German foot operated one in an oak veneered case to choose from.
But Cambric is looking the most favourable fabric.

Wherries and Waterways I have, but Wendish Lands has evaded me.

kmb, the Wherry's format is very similar to the American cat boat. They, too, work very well. Hydrodynamically, I have no idea why they work or why they shouldn't, but clearly they do and very well. I free sailed my old one and it went very well until a gust blew it over and I realised the deck had been glued with flour paste! Everything sprang and it started to slowly sink. I paid some kid 50p to wade out and get it. His mother wasn't too pleased as he didn't take his new shoes off! Happy days in Southchurch Park, eh?

I will remember to use a fin keel for it!

Martin

'Wherries and Waterways' by Robert Malster is also an excellent read, as is 'Our Wherry in Wendish Lands' which as about taking one from the U.K to Holland and Bohemia first published 1891.
Strange but very effective craft a guy on our lake sails one regularly and so so easily.
Good project will be interested to see it progress. Good news about the sails Martin.

I'm with you there Martin I've never been a fan of the Thames barges but I was researching something else and stumbled across the wherry and i thought that's a craft I need to build besides the beauty of it the layout of the mast being so far forward it just defines all logic of what we understand when it comes to sail powered craft , it should have it's nose permanently submerged with a tail wind.
If you like I could scan and email the articles from the magazine's just send me a pm if you want them
Ron

Cheers, KMB. I couldn't find one either. Odd, because I once bought a pair of built boats (Albions) and then sold them when I moved as I had no space. And they were both GRP hulls. Wish I had them now! Although I still find a carvel Wherry somehow wrong.
I have Wherries and Waterways, but for sheer atmosphere Black Sailed Traders, by Roy Clark, is the one for me and it also has good drawings of Gleaner in it.
I can't personally see why the Thames Barge is so much more popular. The Wherry sailed better with fewer sails and crew and I reckon it was a much more attractive shape AND they had a lot of real races for them, too.
Looks like I might have to make a hull and offer its use to a GRP moulder as a pattern in exchange for the first decent moulding. Then I can race a wooden one against a GRP one. in 1/16th scale it'll be 40" long, which is a nice size with a beam of 10 1/2". And it's the same scale as my Vanity cutter and my Crash Tender.

Martin

I didn't have any look finding one Martin was going to build one myself at 1/12 . I managed to find some interesting reading on these boats and I'm waiting for a book to arrive from the Norfolk wherry museum.
I purchased copy's of model boats mags January 1985 which has the build article of the wherry and October 1985 which has a article on upgrades and advice on the original build. I found the book "wherries and waterways" by Robert malster a interesting read.
Ron