I like my bottled gas for cooking and if we get a power cut have three Tilley lamps for lighting. Don't like relying on the utilities!

Thanks for that DG,
Luckily we still had gas to boil the water, but I remember when I was much younger we used to get power cuts extremely regularly, I expect you do too.

Martin555.

"...I charge them up occasionally and as luck would have it we recently had a power cut so I was able to power up a couple of car headlights so That we could see...."

A very clever idea! You can get car accessories like immersion coils for boiling water, which may also be useful in the future.

I have a number of old Uninterruptible Power Supplies sitting around with dead batteries - these will run off 12v car batteries very nicely and give me 240v if I need it - though at the cost of some efficiency. The last power cut we had here was 2 days ago, and if we keep running our energy strategy in the way we are currently doing, I expect they will become a regular feature of life. Luckily it wasn't long, so the web servers stayed up on their UPSs.....

Thank you DG,
That explanation has made it clearer to me.
I still have a few sealed lead acid batteries that are mainly used just to weight things down with.
I charge them up occasionally and as luck would have it we recently had a power cut so I was able to power up a couple of car headlights so That we could see.
We used one and the other we took around to an elderly lady who lives on her own, plus a flask of hot water for her to make a cup of tea.
So now I make sure that they are charged more often now.
They certainly came in handy then.

Martin555.

".....it seemed to generalise without mentioning the the decisive parameters involved, including cost difference!..."

Um. Tricky to cover everything, in a 4 sentence comment!

There seems to be a grave shortage of balanced advice in all aspects of modern life - though no shortage of advice per se at all! In a field where technological change is proceeding it is even harder to gather a useful view. Comparisons which were true one year are incorrect the next, and I suggest that it would be very useful to update any advice on the board which covers batteries....

Luckily there is one reasonably independent place we can go for a balanced view - the market. Although it is not perfectly unbiased, we can deduce that if some battery technologies are surviving in that marketplace there must be a demand for them, and hence that these technologies are likely to be the best available ones for some specific task. We only need to determine what that is.

As a quick example, if you look at a major UK battery supplier to the model hobby - Component Shop - you will find available:

NiMH - both standard and low self-discharge
LiPo
LiFe
Lead Acid (sealed)
Alkaline (probably Manganese)
Silver Oxide

All of these will be the 'best choice' for some application. Our interest is probably mainly with the first four.

There are many battery features to take into account. The energy capacity that the battery contains is one common figure, usually measured in amp-hours, but most people do not realise that that is only correct for a particular delivery rate. To make a motor go fast you need a battery with a high current delivery rate - able to put out a lot of amps over a short time. Dry batteries, for instance, do not usually have a high delivery rate - hence the poor performance available to us in the 1960s!

My top-of-my-head generalisations are below, though I am sure exceptions can be found in all cases! 'Robust' refers to a mix of physical strength and resistance to misuse, such as over-charging or excessive drain. I will try to use the words 'capacity' for the amount of energy stored in a battery, and 'delivery' for the maximum rate at which that energy can be released...


SLA Very robust. Cheapest for high amp-hour capacity at 6 and 12V. Can do high delivery as well, Very heavy. Use for displacement boats, where the ballast weight is a positive benefit. Can do heavy discharge as well, but many small SLAs are designed for emergency equipment use, and expect to support a light discharge over 10-20 hours.

NiMH Fairly robust. Quite cheap for medium amp-hour delivery, and reasonable capacity. Low self-discharge costs are dropping and that technology seems to be expanding in the market, though they tend to be low amp delivery types. Some types can compete with Lipos for high amp delivery in the 30-40A range. Fairly heavy. Make sure that you buy a high-delivery type if that's what you need for motors. Low self-discharge types are good for emergency flashlights and RC transmitter/receivers...

LiPo - Less robust. Best current choice for high amp delivery with low weight. Only readily-available type offering current delivery in the 100+ Amps range. Light, and available in very small sizes. More expensive than NiMH, high capacity very much more, and you need a special charger, though these can be quite cheap nowadays. You should really be using a charger optimised to your battery type anyway. Remember that each LiPo cell is 3-4V, not 1.2V...

LiFE - Similar to LiPo, but more robust. Slightly lower voltage, but very flat volt delivery. Typical current delivery in the 30A range rather than 100+. More expensive than LiPo at the moment, but may displace them eventually.


LiPos are essential if you are using a very high consumption motor - perhaps a racing boat? But when using such currents you usually require cooling systems and quite a specialist drive train. Brushless motors can take high currents, so LiPos are often associated with them, but you can use any battery with any motor if you want - just so long at it delivers the amps! There is no reason why you should not use brushless with SLAs, or LiPos on a low-drain application - though a LiPo may be more expensive than you need for that...

NiMH are perfectly capable of making a boat plane - IF you ensure that the max amp delivery is adequate. You can, for instance, buy NiMh batteries designed for wireless phones with max output 500mA or less - these will disappoint you if you try to use them for motor power!

A handy rule of thumb for estimating optimum battery discharge is to look at the capacity in Amp-hours. A low-drain battery is probably designed to put that out over 20 hours, so divide the Ah by 20 to get an estimate of optimum current draw. A high-drain battery is usually designed to output over 1 hour - so divide the Ah by 1 to get optimum amps. That's only a generality, of course, and the battery spec sheet is the definitive place to look...



"...more likely that HE had shares in a LiPo company to be able to afford them back then..."

When it comes to electrical equipment I do have connections. 😊

If you think LiPos were expensive in the 2000s, you should try buying NiCad pen cells in the 1960s. Probably the most unusual battery I have used was a pack of saline/manganese oxide cells from ex-RAF life jackets, where the battery was open to the water underneath the boat and you could speed it up by scattering salt in front of it....

Re-Yes I agree that you require a certain amount of knowledge
I understand what you are saying Martin but young people these days have grown up with electronics and I don't think they will be scared off to easily. If my son (for example) wants to know anything, it's straight out with the smart phone and looking up everything to do with the subject (wouldn't bother to ask one of us fossils, except as a last resort😐).
I've been using computers for around 33 yrs, and he's 26 and knows way more than I do. Like most people now, he has a computer (smart phone) in his pocket every day. All we had was a phone glued to a wall and later (if we were lucky) a brick.
JB

Hi Peter,
"One thing this conversation has resulted in is a much better understanding of alternatives to LiPo. "
Thanks! Then I have achieved my objective😉
What irritated me about Dodgy's initial post on the subject, and apologies to Dodgy if my response was a little over the top, (must remember not to answer such posts so late at night🤔) was that it seemed to generalise without mentioning the the decisive parameters involved, including cost difference!
Sure there are better low discharge NiMhs thse days, but at higher cost, as I believe I mentioned. E.G. for the fast electrics market.
LiPos have also improved their safety record tremendously (thanks partially to the Boeing Dreamliner mini disaster) in the 15 years that Dodgy has apparently been using them.
Seems more likely that HE had shares in a LiPo company to be able to afford them back then😉
In fact most of the earlier problems with Lithium batteries were with Lithium-Ion.
Was a big nuisance when we wanted to export some of our mobile/portable tactical radio kit.
Had to send the batteries separately under special (expensive) conditions 😠
Seems about time I updated the Battery charging sections in the 'How Tos' on this site to match current products! Been meaning to do that for yonks. So much to do, so little time 🤔
Cheers, Doug

Any battery when abused causes problems - even good old Ni-cads - there were a few pictures of exploded boats in MB magazine - one a Sun tug split in half when the owner tried to fast charge non fast charge Ni-cads.
I had a melt down with two dissimilar Ni-cad packs using a Graupner servo type switch speed controller - the smaller pack burst into flame - fortunately on a test rig.

Possibly what is different about Lipos is they take far less abuse than the other types - so if you are careless with your batteries it would probably be safer to avoid them...

Has anyone any knowledge of the Lipo's which look like double sized AA batteries ? I have 4 and a charger - not sure how to use them ........

One thing this conversation has resulted in is a much better understanding of alternatives to LiPo. I must admit that I turn to LiPo without even considering the application. I will retrain my thought process in future.

Basically for the benefit of the new guys to this hobby.
It is important that you know what type of batteries you have and how to look after them properly.

If in any doubt then please seek advice.

We have some very knowledgeable members on this site so don't be afraid to ask.

Martin555.

"...The point I was trying to say is that if you hear all the bad things about batteries exploding/smoking then nine times out of ten it is not suitable for the job or someone trying a short cut to charging..."

Lipos are not continually exploding - if they were you would not find them on sale for long. But they do require close attention to the rules and the rules are somewhat different to those that people were used to with NiCads, for instance. They can easily be damaged if you do not treat them correctly.

All batteries have an optimum application based on their characteristics - Lead Acid batteries, for instance, are great at providing working ballast for tugs and will tolerate a lot of abuse...

Hi Jb,
Yes I agree that you require a certain amount of knowledge about the equipment that you use and the health and safety side of things.
The point I was trying to say is that if you hear all the bad things about batteries exploding/smoking then nine times out of ten it is not suitable for the job or someone trying a short cut to charging.
I have heard many stories of this happening but someone new to this hobby will think that it is to dangerous and look for a different hobby.
I think that the important thing to get across is using the equipment properly rather than going in to the in' and out's of the very technical descriptions of various bits and pieces.

I am probably not making it any clearer what I am trying to say.

Martin555.

Not quite the same thing but definitely batteries. My partner, Alice was given an electric bicycle at the weekend and was told the battery had 'had it'. She worked on it for a few hours, luckily, knowing what she was doing and was able to go for a ride on it yesterday afternoon.

Nerys

Re - It is good to have all this information on the different batteries,
Hi Martin, I think what we are trying to say is that all battery types are good as long as you maintain them properly and they are suitable for the job they are doing. Batteries are getting better and safer every day and the choices increasing as well so it can be confusing for beginners in the R/C hobbies.
Unfortunately you do need to be aware of the technical stuff re -use and charging, as all battery packs can be dangerous (ie, try shorting a big NiCad or NiMh pack and see if the smoke doesn't leak out and melt your fingers!) They can cause fires too but people seem stuck on the LiPo 'dangers' and forget about those 'safe' batteries.
The good thing is that people can google anything these days and can usually check for instructions or possible problems before buying any product, model or otherwise.
JB

Hi Guys,
It is good to have all this information on the different batteries, but I like many of us use what ever is recommended to us and probably don't look after them as well as we should do.
I have had batteries that have lasted many many years and some that have lasted only months.
It is really good to have members on this site that know the technical stuff and that you can ask questions about it and will get the proper answers.

I feel that we tend to go a bit overboard with the technical stuff and I am sure that if new guys start reading all of this then they might steer away from this hobby.

It is so easy to get bogged down with the technological advantages of this type or that type, but at the end of the day we just want to enjoy the making of a nice boat and the pleasure of seeing all your hard work finally going through it's paces.
That to me is what this hobby is all about.

Martin555.

"....Usually you post useable info, but in this case I have to vehemently disagree!
And I would like to put the record straight before you lead our novice members to potential disaster, or at least an expensive disappointment!..."

Well, this certainly stirred something up! And I can't see why? Perhaps RN has shares in a Lipo factory? 😉

All that I have said is standard knowledge on the subject. NiMH ARE more robust than LiPos - I can't see how anyone can disagree with that. They are more forgiving of overcharge and over-depletion. I have not said that Lipos should not be used - I use them myself - but I have stated a preference for NiMH where the benefits of Lipos are not a requirement.

I have been using NiMH for around 15 years, and Lipos for about the same time. During that period I must have bought around 2 dozen packs of each type. I currently have one working LiPo pack, while all my NiMH packs work, albeit sometimes with less charge than originally. The Lipos have gone unbalanced, swollen, delaminated or punctured at some point.

Lipos, when working, are phenomenal items, and make miniature flying models possible. I use them for this, and would, as I have said, use them when light weight and high power are essential. But they do require that you look after them and follow the rules - in particular, not over-discharging them. If you do not treat them properly they will certainly swell and fail - I cannot see why stating this is considered scaremongering? It is this lack of robustness that makes me prefer NiMH, since I do not take particular care of my batteries. NiMH will put up with this - Lipo won't. That is the gist of what I said, it is attested by other comments on this thread which stress that you must 'follow the rules' and I can't see how stating it will lead novice members to potential disaster or expensive disappointment? I would have thought the opposite...

Incidentally, your comments about the differences between Lipos and Nimh seem to cover all the good points of Lipos and the bad points of NiMH. It would be more useful to novices to see a better balanced description. For instance, recent advances in NiMH batteries have produced low self-discharge batteries - (quoting the wiki)

"In October 2011 the batteries were again improved to retain up to 90% of their capacity after one year, 80% after three years and 70% after five years."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneloop

These are readily available, I have used these in emergency flashlights and can confirm that they do do 'what it says on the tin' (though I haven't had time to try out the five year claim yet!). They can be of use if your modelling practices include going to the lake at short notice.

I hope this isn't going to develop into a flame war. As I said, I can't see why noting a preference for the robustness of NiMH should engender such a response...

Hi Guys,
Thank you for your comments I appreciate them.
The main reason I say that she need to be bigger than the prototype is at this size she will Bob about like a cork.
If she was made bigger then she will cope with the waves much better.

As for the plans well that part is still a work in progress as I need help from DodgyGeezer.
I have made sketches with measurements and instructions but I am no good at drawing up plans.

Martin555.

RE "I would use brushless, but avoid Lipos in less there was a good reason for them.
Quite true Doug, I still have the first Zippy Flightmax 5s 20c LiPo I bought (02.06.2010) and it still balances after all this time, (just pulled it out of the archive and it's reading 3.92-3.91- 3.92-3.90.3.92 in storage mode) Doesn't have much guts any more but is perfectly usable in a boat. I have a few newer 4s 40c discharge batteries which have puffed/gassed, but are still usable with care ( don't suck more than 40A for too long, cool them straight away - always have an Esky with bagged ice handy if running batteries at high drain and getting them hot)
At home and you're testing, if they get quite hot, just put them in the fridge to cool down. I have even forgotten and frozen them solid in the freezer, (takes a while to get power back while they warm up,- bit like frozen frogs!) If you have any that puff badly or get very hot constantly for no reason, ditch them.
Safest way to do this is to make up a bucket of very salty water outside and drop the battery in to discharge it (you will see the leads bubbling,) next day, (if all activity has stopped), take it out in the middle of the garden (making sure the wind is blowing towards open space- Not your neighbors just in case as if it does smoke,- it's nasty stuff!) and ram a large garden fork or 4"nail right through it to make sure all the charge has gone and it's safe to dispose of (I still leave them outside in a tin for a few months just to be extra sure)
Do Not Do This Without Discharging In The Bucket First !!! as once they start you can't put them out, as it's a chemical reaction, and you will have so much nasty smoke you won't believe it !!!), not to mention a few thousand degrees of heat and flames!.
Now go out and buy a new battery and look after it properly ie, using correct charging, discharging and storage charging, and it should last for years, - especially in boats, as unless used in racing boats, the discharge for the average brushed/ brushless scale boat is nothing compared to planes.
JB

Agreed Nerys👍
Would be more imposing and offer more possibilities for special effects!
But then, the plans (if there are any!?) can always be scaled up?
😎

Is there any reason why this boat could not be built bigger? She looks great but would be equally or even more, attractive if 50% bigger.

Hi Martin,
"It will need to be bigger for RC."
Actually I don't think so.
There are so many mini, micro, pico, RC components available these days, look at the Deltang RXs etc for model railways for example!
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/
I managed to squish two 385 motors into a sub hull WTC only 5.7cm (2.25") wide.
Electronics, except ESC (visible next to the battery forward of the engine room), into a similar, but tapered, compartment in the bow.
So motorisation and RC must be possible with your boat with 4.25" beam.
But in your case, as you say you have no possibility to get to a sailing pond😭, I s'pose static models is the only solution ☹️ But can also be a source of satisfaction👍😊
Cheers, Doug 😎

Exactly Peter👍
I remember we discussed this very topic several months ago😉
Stick to the rules and LiPos are no problem at all.
Ignore your NiMh batts for a few months and they'll revenge themselves on you!
Or your wallet☹️
Cheers, Doug 😎

I have a good number of LiPo batteries and have found them not only powerful but extremely good at holding their charge. I have no choice, I have to leave my batteries for six months at a time and their storage charge does not diminish at all. I check them on every visit and they are always exactly as they were left.
I do take precautions though as they can be problematic if not cared for. I always keep them with a storage charge in a fireproof bag inside an ammunition box. You can never be too careful but my experience is that they are quite safe if cared for.😊

Looks superb Martin. Well done.

"I would use brushless, but avoid Lipos in less there was a good reason for them.

NiMh are fairly forgiving of neglect - they can be left for months, charged and run. Lipos need looking after, otherwise they swell and might go bang. And boats are happy enough with the extra weight.. . "
👎
Sorry Dodgy,
Usually you post useable info, but in this case I have to vehemently disagree!
And I would like to put the record straight before you lead our novice members to potential disaster, or at least an expensive disappointment!
1. "NiMh are fairly forgiving of neglect - they can be left for months, charged and run."
WRONG! NiMh cells lose about 1% of their charge per day!
Cheaper ones with a higher internal resistance even more☹️
Which means that after about three to three and a half months they will go into deep discharge from which they can not recover. I.e. buy new batteries!
The rate of such self discharge of course depends on the quality (hence price 🤔) of the battery in the first place. The higher the internal resistance (cheap battery☹️) the faster the self discharge rate. Probably the best ones to go for are those advertised as Racing Packs. With luck they will have a lower internal resistance, otherwise they'd be useless for high speed high current racing motors!!
"they can be left for months, charged and run"
Hmmm! Maybe, if you're lucky, but they won't then ever run for so long as when they were new, or properly looked after, i.e. recycled/recharged every 2 or 3 months.
At best you might be able to regenerate them somewhat by going through about 10 cycles of discharge and charge to recondition them. But if they have been too long in deep discharge even this won't work, the chemical deterioration is no longer reversible.
Remember also the Memory Effect of NiMh chemistry batteries.
If you fully recharge an NiMh battery before it is fully discharged it has an irritating habit of "remembering" the state of charge when you started charging and will not accept any more!
Which means that the the total capacity of the battery is prematurely reduced each time this happens☹️

2. "Lipos need looking after, otherwise they swell and might go bang."
This I can only regard as pure scaremongering!
I'm not usually so scathing in my remarks but in this instance I fear it is justified!
Sure LiPos can be dangerous, but so can any battery of any chemistry!
Seriously overcharge a "so called" Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery it can vent hydrogen gas.
One spark in an unventilated room and you can re-enact the the Zeppelin disaster at Lakehurst.
Unlikely these days I'll grant you, cos you'd have to stick a lot of amps in for a long time!
The advantages of LiPos over NiMh, apart from the lower weight per energy/power available is that their self discharge rate is almost negligible, and their inherent internal resistance is much lower, given that you don't buy the cheapest No Name on offer!
If you intend to store (not use) a LiPo for an extended period cycle it and give it a "Storage charge" of 30% and you can leave it so for several months.
During which time your NiMh battery will probably self discharge itself into destruction.
Modern LiPos will only swell and explode if you seriously maltreat them;
- subject them to excessive heat,
- leave them on a manual charger (not programmable for LiPos) for too long,
- charge them at too high a current,
Ignore all those labels with 10C or 20C charge rates!
That's just marketing blurb to get you to overstress your batteries so you have to buy new ones sooner. NEVER charge at more than 1Amp if you want to get several years of life from your expensive battery.
- charge without using a cell balancer,
- draw excessive current from them under load.

Stick to the rules and LiPos are no problem at at all.
That is my experience from three years of using them.
Oh! And not all boats are tolerant of the extra weight (of an NiMh presumably), for many smaller boats (Plastic Magic conversions for example) LiPos are the only viable solution.
They now make the previously impossible possible 😊
Cheers, Doug 😎

I would use brushless, but avoid Lipos unless there was a good reason for them.

NiMh are fairly forgiving of neglect - they can be left for months, charged and run. Lipos need looking after, otherwise they swell and might go bang. And boats are happy enough with the extra weight.. .

Hi Red,
I have not tried putting it in water at the moment, I have only put it on a shelf in my little workshop.
Next job is to give my workshop a bit of a clean up.

Martin555.

Hi Marky,
I hope to but there is still a lot to be done with the drawings.

Martin555.

Very nice job Martin - looking really good - glad you finished the project even as a static model.
Should not have to be much bigger for RC - if anything - a pair of 280's or speed 300s on 6v 2/3 AA Nimh would push her well at the current size . Using one lightweight ESC driving both motors and small receiver/servo would not add much weight. How does she float at present?
(of course Dodgy would be using brushless motors and Lipo's which I'm totally unfamiliar with)

Very nice Martin ,are you putting the drawings forward to the EezeBuilt site?.if so will have a go .
Cheers Marky

Well guys this is the final boat.
And as you know my first attempt at designing a boat for the EeZeBuilt web site.
The weapons are designed so that they can be made quite easily.
I am not happy with it, there will have to be a lot of changes made.
It will need to be bigger for RC.
The Bow will need to be designed differently for the younger ones to be able to make this easier.
Unfortunately I have made this a static model as I do not have enough RC Equipment.

Martin555.

Thank you for the offer Colin, I really appreciate it.
I will still look around to see what I have.
I will bare it in mind.
Thank you.

Martin555.

Hi Martin, I also have some spare small motors, also a broken small helicopter with the electrics still fitted and working it has a broken top rotor. Yours for the asking.
Cheers Colin.

True but modified for your helium it will stop your Tug from sinking LOL!

Martin555.

Odd looking "Hot air balloon" !!

This is what I had in mind Doug,

Martin555.

"axe method" sounds a bit drastic😮
Prefer Occam's Razor meself!
😎
Gotta stop waffling and go DO SOMETHING now!
CU's all later, Ciao

It has to be wood cutting competition sharp Martin!😊

Hadn't thoughta that!
Use the tug as a Gondola, it would end up like a WW1 Zeppelin .. sort of😁
😎

Hi Jb,
I have not used the axe method before, sounds complicated LOL!

Martin555.

Doug,
You could spray the Tug grey and attach the airship to it.
Then then you are lakeside you can tell everyone that it is a WWII thing LOL!

Martin555.

Nothing wrong with that Martin, that's pretty much how most of mine start, then you get out the axe and start a'whittlin'. Once you get some spray rails, windows and other details you won't know it.
JB

Now THAT'S an idea👍
Especially as I also need helium for my Airship!!
The tug may just end up as a pipe-dream🤔
Cheers, Doug 😎

You may need ballast tanks full of helium LOL!!

Martin555.

Nothing to show yet Martin,
I've only been testing max payload so far and trying to sort out parts that meet the maximum.
Not completely solved yet. But I have seen it done in a MB mag article a few years ago.
Will post when I believe I've cracked it👍
One thing I definitely won't need is ....... BALLAST!!
Cheers, Doug 😎
BTW: the RXs on offer are 27 or 40Megs. The smallest being the 40Meg jobs.
The ESCs are for brushed motors. Of which I also have many small one, thanks in part to Colin H and in part to my Salvage Division, old VCRs, shavers and all sorts!

Hi Doug.
You must show me the Tug that you have been fiddling with, I am very interested,

Martin555.

Hi Martin,
"Although this model is a bit small for rc but if I can I will try and do something,"
That's why I mentioned the mini RXs and servos 👍
20x4.25" ain't so small.
I've been fiddlin with a 22x6.3cm (8.66x2.5"😮) Harbour tug.
Have (or had?) the RX, motor and servo sorted, now trying to figure out the battery.
Would like to use a little 1S LiPo but that means using up my one and only Deltang micro RX/ESC and Servo set from Micron Radio Control😐
Originally made for model railways but also usable for mini RC Plastic Magic ships 😉
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/
Happy searching, Doug 😎

Hi Doug,
That is extremely kind of you and I appreciate it tremendously thank you.

I will have a look around to see if I have got anything.
Although this model is a bit small for rc but if I can I will try and do something,

I am getting to the stage where I am running out of model making stuff and may have to revert to make static models.
I seem to have more junk than useful stuff now LOL!
Thanks again.

Martin555.

Hi Martin,
"At the moment I don't know if I have enough bits and pieces to make it radio control,"

After you've looked let me know what you might need.👍
I've got a stash of so many bits and pieces I'll never be able to use them all I suspect!
Loads of 27 and 40Meg stuff for instance, including Mini and Pico RXs.
And more servos from micro to macro than I can shake a stick at!
Be a shame to waste them🤔
Cheers Doug 😎

Hi Red,
"wish I had more time to build .....and built a little faster . (One took 10 years...) "

I started my 1936 H Class destroyer Hotspur some 53 years ago😮
She's now undergoing her third major refit and upgrade!!😉
It's taking about as long as a Nimitz class Midlife Refit does☹️
Cheers, Doug 😎