Good evening all, this thread is now continuing on the following :-
https://model-boats.com/forum/87907#88551
Thanks all, cheers Colin.

Hi Colin, I have copied the plan, If you send your address I will post it out to you. Please PM me.
Cheers Paul.

Thank you Paul, that would be fine, do you have a large scanner, or if you can trust me, I have an A3 scanner copier.
You could send it as a dxf, dwg, or pdf file via email.
Whichever you decide I will still pay you for it .
Cheers Colin.

Hello Colin, the plan is half size. I dont realy want to let it go but will happily try and copy it for you.

Good morning HAkits.
Your plan would make the world of difference to me, how much would you want for it.
Thank you Colin.

I might be a bit late with this but i have only just seen the post. The Norstar fire boat was my second boat build in about 1976 and i still have the plan, is it any use to you?

Good evening lads and lasses,
As my home life has been interrupted recently my modelling has been on hold with only the odd half hour now and then.
I've managed to get the hull side skins on, the side, fore and stern decks also glued in position.
Next stage will be to clean up all the seems, followed by trimming and shaping the keel back to the skins.
I intend to fill the space in front of the front bulkhead with filling foam to add strength and buoyancy in case of disaster.
Will post some pictures soon, so watch this space, cheers Colin.

Hi Colin.
I will forward your message on to Stephen and he will link into it as soon as he can.

Martin555.

Its okay mate my memory ain't what it used to be, maybe somehow the original posts from 6 years ago could be added to this .
Still not getting any email notifications, I've checked the spam as well and nothing.
Also is there an app thats not the beta version yet.
Cheers Colin.

Sorry Colin,
My sense of humour sometimes gets the better of me.

Martin555.

Hey Martin, thats not fair, I gave it away and got it back exactly as I was originally given it. Check back on the original post from 6 years ago (norstar crash tender. )
But I'll certainly give it my best shot.
Cheers Colin.

Perhaps it has come back and is saying to you " now you have had a practice run at making me you can now make me better this time " LOL!!

Martin555.

Maybe the boats destiny lies in my hands after all.
Only time will tell, cheers Colin.

Colin,
So it is not a case of turning up like a bad penny it is turning up like a bad boat LOL!!

Martin555.

Good evening all, I have been slowly preparing the boat for the side skins.
We had a visitor yesterday of the lady that gave me the boat, her husbands cousin told her that the boat was given to them 6 years ago by me as I was helping her husband after he had been very ill, but sadly he never did anything to it.
So I have had a look back at some of my old posts and found it, (norstar crash tender),it hsd come as one of a whole bunch of boats given to me from someone in Coventry.
Anyway I am now slowly working through its problems and rectifying them as I go on with the build, just wish I had the drawings.
Have drilled the holes for the rudder and water pickup.
I will try to post pictures tomorrow if the app let's me.
Cheers Colin.

The final rudder arrived today, I now have a 45mm, 50mm and 53mm, to choose from.
The 50mm looks good, but now I can see where to drill, I may opt for the 53.
So tomorrow I will drill and try each in turn, I will also drill for the water pickup for the cooling and monitors.
Plus a bit more skin trimming to do, then have a look at the side skins.
Cheers Colin.

Colin
I think you are on the right track with your threaded tube and O ring

Hi Colin.

As long as the rudder tube end inside the boat is above water level you won't need an 'O' Ring just a bit of grease inside the tube.
As it is a normal rudder tube the best way is to drill a nice tight fit hole to match the tube and then glue it in with epoxy.
You could also make a larger block to slide over the tube and glue to the hull to strengthen the joint.

Martin555.

Hi Colin.

Don't forget to leave room for the water cooling pick up, that is if you are fitting one.

Martin555.

Thanks Nerys, I'm looking at fitting a threaded tube onto the supplied one and soldering in place before fitting.
Then if I ever need to change it I can remove easily.
It passes through the keel structure which is 1/2" by 1" . Just trying different positions before drilling, using a cardboard cut to size of rudder, think this might be the position.
Cheers Colin.

I have much the same problem with the rudders supplied with my LST. They are just rudders and tubes that they fit in. Where they have to go on the LST is not flat, it's virtually on what I would call the turn of the bilge, so we have just drilled a hole, put the tubes in i and held them in place with liquid metal epoxy.

Best of luck with it,
Cheers Nerys

2 of the rudders I ordered have arrived, the red Krick one looks to be the better size and shape,
has anyone any tips on how to fit this one as the tube the saft fits through doesn't have a thread .
In the past I have always used the treaded types with an "0" ring seal, as in the case of the brass one.
Any help much appreciated.
Cheers Colin.

Trimming the bottom skins not too easy as the glue is like rock, I am having to use a junior hacksaw cut it and file back to the chines.
So far this morning I have cut back 1 side, fitted some deck supports and coamings.
Now I have a stable stand for it I can work in the kitchen, (with the bosses blessing.)
So now although slow progress is being made.
Cheers Colin.

Looking at the plans for the aerokits crash tender the rudder is a long way back from the prop.
That looks too far away for my model though, so I'll wait till the rudders arrive so I can compare them for size on the model.
Although I haven't actually done any more work to the boat I managed to nock up a stand.
Also been trying to assess where to trim the hull bottom skins as the original builder hadn't trimmed and they need trimming to allow the side skins to fit.
Now I've got the boss back home I'll ask permission to get modelling again.
Cheers shipmates, Colin.

Hi Colin

Yeah the surrounds are laser cut ply probably 1.5 or 2mm but will measure tomorrow and let you know kind sir 👍

Cheers
Neil

Hi Colin
Just my little bit. The rudder is trailing on my Sea Commander

Hi Colin,

I bought a set of the SLEC windows for the part built firetender that I acquired from one of our members who was fleeing the country. As Neil says, one pair are slightly different in the Aerokits version, but it's the work of minutes to adjust one to the other.

Cheers, Nerys

Glad to help Admiral😊
I assume that your 50mm rudder would reach about halfway down the prop's lowest blade?
In that respect a lot depends on the angle the prop shaft is fitted at; i.e. how close the top of the prop is to the hull.
I strongly suspect that your 'ancient' kit was designed to be fitted with an IC engine, and thus the shaft angle is greater than we need today with small electric motors.
If it's not already too late maybe you can alter that to get the prop closer to the hull and thus reduce the rudder length accordingly? Halfway down the lowest prop blade should be enough.
Happy experimenting 🤞 Bear in mind; if you fill a boat that size with gizmos and SLA batteries you'll need a fair size rudder to overcome the inertia and turn her smartly!
Apropos fillet; I'd go for the haddock, preferably smoked (JB or Graham can help you out there!😁)
All the best to the 2 Cs, cheers, Doug 😎

Thanks Doug, that makes a great deal of sense to me, now I will be able to work out where to drill for the rudder tube, just awaiting some rudders to arrive, then I will choose appropriate size.
If I go by your details it should be a 55mm rudder which would be in line with the lowest tip of the prop but I think I will wait for the rudders as when doing my test card ones , a 50mm looked too big.
As for the fillet I will stick to cod or haddock being as I want the boat in 1 piece.
Cheers Colin.

"has anyone ever been told that the rudder size is prop diameter plus 10 per cent."
Never not no 'ow Colin!
In my modelling experience, and years of poring over ship GA drawings and chatting with ship builders over lunch; the relationship between hull prop and rudder is more important than absolute sizes.
That is:-
1) Top of rudder should be as close to the hull as possible to be in the lamina water flow along the hull bottom.
2) Rudder should cover the full face of the prop; i.e. bottom of rudder should be at same level as the lowest tip of the prop. Minimum half way down the lowest blade. For max effect from the prop wash which extends back as a spiralling cone.
3) Rudder shaft (for a plain single piece rudder and open prop) 1/4 to 1/3 back from the leading edge.
4) leading edge of rudder as close to prop hub as safely possible.
Just checked all my scale warships and they all follow these guidelines😊
Vessels with ducted props often have the rudder shaft at the leading edge, e.g. tugs.

Attached is a pic of my Sea Scout installation; 28x8.5" boat, 30mm prop. Rudder fits close to the hull and extends to approx halfway down the lowest prop blade. (That's what was in the bits box😉 but it woiks!)
Leading edge is about 5mm from the prop hub. Could have been closer but that's how Dad originally built her😉
And she is highly manoeuvrable, as you may have seen in my videos of the Sea Trials😀
https://model-boats.com/gallery?q=Sea%20scout%20%27Jessica%27
Hope this helps solve the dilemma👍
Cheers, Doug 😎
BTW: If you FILLET your boat won't it collapse in a jellylike heap!?😮
😁😂🤣

Thanks Neil, are they made of ply, my old aerokits version has polycarbonate, including the front screen wiper.
Cheers Colin

Hi Colin

A couple of photos of the SLEC window surrounds as promised.
The only issue I have found is the front cabin windows (ringed) are not the same shape as the Aerokits model.
Cheers
Neil

I bet it won't sink Colin

Thats a good idea Martin, my original aerokits 34.5 inch has a 35mm prop and 35mm rudder, but it under performs as its had so many repairs over its 60 years its overweight and underpowered (but as its the first model boat I was involved in building with my dad and I love it).
Its only got a little motor, about a 450. But the extra weight of the water pump for the monitors, the brass fittings and brass mast, 2x7.4volt nicads. 2 servos and micro switches for the monitors. Plus about 1.5mm of sealing resin on the interior.
Cheers Colin.

Colin,
Perhaps members that have built fireboats could send you some photos of there models then you could see the shape of the rudder.

And if they have made a 34" model then could they give you some measurements.

Martin555.

I suppose if it looks right it is right. The other thing is do I go for a trailing or mid spindle.
I know its a kit, but its ending up more scratch build.
Cheers Colin.

Hi Colin,
I have not heard that before.

My HMS Cottesmore has 2 X 50mm props and 2 x 40mm rudders.

So perhaps he just wanted to sound good.

Martin555.

Question , has anyone ever been told that the rudder size is prop diameter plus 10 per cent. This came from local model shop, but they don't sell any nautical stuff, only rtr models.
I'm running either a 40 or 45mm prop so do I go for 50mm rudder.
Had a quick play with card cutouts and I think that it looks too big. 45mm looks best to me.
But which design will give best results.
In the past I have used whatever came with the model or recommendation from a model shop.
So is there a set of rules for rudders????
Cheers Colin.

Hi Colin
The window set from SLEC is quite good I'll post a picture tonight so you can see them in real life. I think they were only 11 or 12 quid delivered.
Loving the fillet idea and I shall be doing exactly the same now so thank you for posting an excellent and easy solution.
If the whole deck comes off does that cause issues with water ingress or is it a snug fit? I've seen a couple of boats on ebay with the arrangement you mention and thought people had just decided to make it that way..another education for me.
Cheers Neil

I've been thinking of doing the same thing on my LST, The plan shows a sort of framework, probably more accurate, but looks far too flimsy to me,

Nerys

Colin,
When it is made in wood and painted i think it will look the part.

Martin555.

Good evening all, I have been looking at the propshaft support solutions for my model.
I have decided to use an infifill fillet and not the P support as it will give more strength to the shaft and keel.
As you can see in the pictures I have made a couple of card templates just to get my ideas in perspective. I will be able to use them as templates to cut some ply fillets.
Once filled and painted it will look like it was meant to be this way.
Please be critical of my idea if you think that I am doing it wrong.
Cheers Colin.

It was worth a chance Colin,

Martin555.

Good evening Martin, sorry for the late response but I've been very preoccupied of late.
There isn't a kit number, the details are as the box pictures. Even the build instructions aren't numbered.
So I'll just muddle my way forward till I'm satisfied with the model.
Cheers Colin.

Good evening Neil, the aerokits version I have has removable roofs and mid deck.
Whereas the norstar model the whole cabin is removable in 2 sections, forward sections including mid deck section.
And the aft section, the 2 halves meet at the rear of the mid deck.
The only similarities I have found are the windows, so I may ask for a set of windows and frames.
Cheers Colin.

Agree SLEC are fantastic they did a bespoke laser cut for me to replace missing superstructure bits. But you're right again Colin their version is different to the Aerokits version especially in the length of the cabin sides by about 10mm at each end. Its causing a few problems for me at present and trying to fit something that extremely accurate to something that's old and out of line is fun......not
So I'm feeling your pain and frustration you're having with the rudder.

Thats excellent as you know things are all a little slow with my restoration so I have plenty of time to see what solution you go for 😁
Just a slight concern on the word muddle...from what I've seen of your posts I didn't think that word would be in your dictionary 👍

Good morning JB,
Slec are very good but they have told me that they don't have plans for the NORSTAR version. Also the aerokits version is different to theirs as well, so unless anyone knows of another Norstar Crash Tender I'm afraid its down to me.
Cheers Colin.

Thanks for your input, I have a p bracket but a couple of my old boats which had p supports kept gathering weed, so I changed to the fillets.
Much less weed gathering and also less movement by the wind.
Cheers Colin.

SLEC are a brilliant company to deal with! They are always helpful😊😊